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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoj View Post
    lol, only if the kata is done right, i dont say that to simply be argumentative, I am actually defending the aiki arts here.

    kata is a 2 way learning thing, the outcome varies, uke should be trying to win, tori should be trying to maintain their centre, if tori manages to maintain it, then the kata was done wrong, if the kata is done right, he falls over.

    kata should be questioned, because it should work.
    You're not making any sense. I don't think you understand the definition of Kata and Randori.

    The very second you resist or try to change anything whatsoever in a Kata you are no longer doing Kata. You are now doing Randori.

    This is what pisses me off most when people start arguing about Aikido training. The vast majority of Aikidoka do Kata training only. Of course they're going to suck. So when some guy says "Aikido throws don't work!" I say blame the Aikidoka, not the art. Though if someone says "Hey, try that throw on me!" I'm a little less sympathetic. You can easily evade or resist a technique if you know it's coming, so that's not a fair assessment of the technique in question. But of course it usually further degenerates and the Aikidoka may end up getting embarrassed during a friendly bout, because again, he only does Kata.

    The thing that drives me crazy the most though would have to be other Aikidoka resisting during Kata training that have never done any form of real Randori. They stiffen up and try to inform you on what you did wrong and then you go and do the same thing and they tell you not to resist. Like I said, what's the point? If you want to resist that's fine, but let's do it during Randori where I'm free to feint, switch techniques, and resist you all I want, not during Kata.

    However, the effectiveness of your Randori will vary depending on how live you want it to be (I suspect from your lack of understanding that you're overstating the effectiveness of your so called Kata exercises).

  2. #102
    Yoj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaiNnyX4 View Post
    (I suspect from your lack of understanding that you're overstating the effectiveness of your so called Kata exercises).

    Thanks for explaining it to me so clearly.

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by hl1978 View Post
    Actually if you go read Sagawa's book, which is recently translated into english, it was because Takeda Sokaku made Sagawa, Ueshiba and all of his other daito-ryu disciples do massive amounts of solo internal training.

    http://transparentpower.com/

    I read the japanese copy a few years back, and he credits whipping olympic judoka in his 80's not because of muscles or waza but because he built his body utilizing internal skill. I'll pull the page if you want from the japanese version.

    If you look at the post-war deschi, Ueshiba supposedly no longer taught internal training, which probably is a factor why aikido is in the state it is today.

    Oddly enough, the kyokushin kancho was training at the Sagawa's dojo as well.
    Before we continue this discussion, please list the Olympic Judoka and how exactly they were "whipped" by a man in his 80's.

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoj View Post
    It's in context, should I swear to help the bullshidokas get the point?

    whing whinge fuckin whinge.
    Really??
    How long will it take to realise that you are saying the same thing then.
    The only difference is that you do not have the same definition of what a kata is.
    That was clear to a dim witted whinging swearing foreign twat like me, and i am not that bright.

    phil

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaiNnyX4 View Post
    So I guess you've already forgotten about the videos I've posted? Can you try and remember this one so I don't have to go fishing around again?

    Technique 1 Kaiten Nage:

    YouTube - Morihiro Saito Shihan

    Video proof in alive environment (@0:45):

    YouTube - The strongest sumo wrestler Asashouryuu

    Technique 2 Aiki Otoshi:

    YouTube - Ryo kata dori aiki otoshi

    Video proof in alive environment (@7:50):

    YouTube - Best Lyoto Machida HL

    Now, you might say "But those guys aren't Aikidoka!" and you'd be correct. But that only gives credence to my argument. These guys don't train in Aikido, but Aikido techniques can be found in their respective arts. The difference between what these guys do and what the majority of Aikidoka do isn't the techniques, but the training methodology.
    Now this is an interesting point and an excellent catalyst that can take the argument to its next stage.

    May I focus on the second second technique because I have seen this in shodokan sparring. I use a modified version of this in judo and it is simple, direct and effective.

    Now, the question I ask is - 'is it aikido?' By way of explanation, O'Sensei (founder of aikido for all the boxers out there) adopted a religion (Omoto, based on buddhism) which preached peace and harmony at a time when Japan was committing horrific war crimes. His horror of war drove him from violence and in 1942 he said "The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love."

    He took aikido and 'pacified' it, producing flowing 'dance-like' movements and incorporating peaceful philosophies of harmony present in Omoto and its root philosophy, Buddhism. The more destruction and war he saw, the more aikido was pacified and the more peaceful and 'flowing' it became.

    Aikido is not a fighting art and cannot be used in 'real' combat. Rather, it is a philosophy of peace and the movements are not designed to throw. They are descended from 'real' martial arts but O'Sensei intentionally removed the violence but kept the origins.

    This is why no aikido practitioner can throw me. Sure, the original forms of DRAJ (aikido's great-grandaddy) were violent and are good ways to learn to fight and there are techniques any MMA fighter would immediately recognise. In fact, I am mildly disappointed in aikidoka who have missed the point about O'Sensei and his deliberate pacification of aikido. But don't take my word for it, a basic search on Google will confirm the facts and quotations in this tract.

    This is why true aikidoka cannot be the biggest jerks in martial arts as the original poster suggested. My favourite quote of O'Sensei's is:

    "There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within."

    Peace and love guys (until I kick your ass, of course).

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by RaiNnyX4 View Post
    NO.

    Kata is Kata and Randori is Randori. There should be no resistance or countering during Kata. I mean, what's the point? If I already know what technique my partner is going to do, it's easy as hell to counter. It's meant to teach you the proper form and execution of a particular technique, THAT'S ALL. Once you have that down, you're supposed to go test what you've learned in Randori.
    .
    Just to interject, but in bjj, often we'll be set up in a position by our teacher, (whole class will start in half guard etc.) and told to try and execute the technique we learned that day (or any other we can perform from that position, but ideally we'd be trying to use the technique we learned that day for practice). We switch positions do it again, and then rotate partners etc. We ussually learn techniques in sets, so that we have two or three techniques to try at a time (they lead into eachother when your partner tries to counter).

    So, I mean, its definitely not comparable to and way better IMO than aikido katas, but like, knowing what technique/s your opponent is going to try doesn't make resistance completely useless.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by maxthegeek1 View Post
    Just to interject, but in bjj, often we'll be set up in a position by our teacher, (whole class will start in half guard etc.) and told to try and execute the technique we learned that day (or any other we can perform from that position, but ideally we'd be trying to use the technique we learned that day for practice). We switch positions do it again, and then rotate partners etc. We ussually learn techniques in sets, so that we have two or three techniques to try at a time (they lead into eachother when your partner tries to counter).

    So, I mean, its definitely not comparable to and way better IMO than aikido katas, but like, knowing what technique/s your opponent is going to try doesn't make resistance completely useless.
    No, you're right. We do the same thing in my BJJ club.

    The difference is that once you BOTH start resisting, countering, etc. you're no longer doing Kata, you're now performing Randori. What good is it if only one person is "alive"?

    That's my problem with the guy who suddenly starts resisting during Kata. He's suddenly in Randori mode while I'm trying to perform Kata.

    If he wants to do that, then that's fine. Just let me know ahead of time so I can be ready for Randori as well.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gorilla View Post
    Now this is an interesting point and an excellent catalyst that can take the argument to its next stage.

    May I focus on the second second technique because I have seen this in shodokan sparring. I use a modified version of this in judo and it is simple, direct and effective.

    Now, the question I ask is - 'is it aikido?' By way of explanation, O'Sensei (founder of aikido for all the boxers out there) adopted a religion (Omoto, based on buddhism) which preached peace and harmony at a time when Japan was committing horrific war crimes. His horror of war drove him from violence and in 1942 he said "The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love."

    He took aikido and 'pacified' it, producing flowing 'dance-like' movements and incorporating peaceful philosophies of harmony present in Omoto and its root philosophy, Buddhism. The more destruction and war he saw, the more aikido was pacified and the more peaceful and 'flowing' it became.

    Aikido is not a fighting art and cannot be used in 'real' combat. Rather, it is a philosophy of peace and the movements are not designed to throw. They are descended from 'real' martial arts but O'Sensei intentionally removed the violence but kept the origins.

    This is why no aikido practitioner can throw me. Sure, the original forms of DRAJ (aikido's great-grandaddy) were violent and are good ways to learn to fight and there are techniques any MMA fighter would immediately recognise. In fact, I am mildly disappointed in aikidoka who have missed the point about O'Sensei and his deliberate pacification of aikido. But don't take my word for it, a basic search on Google will confirm the facts and quotations in this tract.

    This is why true aikidoka cannot be the biggest jerks in martial arts as the original poster suggested. My favourite quote of O'Sensei's is:

    "There are no contests in the Art of Peace. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within."

    Peace and love guys (until I kick your ass, of course).
    Excellent post; I agree, this is the heart of the dialogue here.

    I would argue that the term Aikido includes both pre-war and post-war Aikido. That is to say, it includes martial aikido (which is kept alive today by stylists in the form of Yoshinkan and the judo-aikido tournament blend) and "way of peace", literally a physical philosophy instead of a combat art.

    Yet, even the philosophy-of-peace aikido has the dim remnants of real hip throws, armbars, shoulder throws, and palm strikes to the face. It's totally ineffective in both form and practice at that flowing-exercise extreme, but the waza still relates to (points to?) useful technique.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by hl1978 View Post
    I would disagree but it needs to be felt in person,or if you prefer you can read reviews by BJJ purple belts, army combatives instructors (Major Kevin Leavitt for example), various judo guys etc all who describe the sensations in the same way I have....
    You basically feel heaiver/stronger. Most people who feel me in BJJ swear im 25lbs heaver than I am.
    Most BJJ academies sure are impressed by someone who knows how to sink their weight.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gorilla View Post
    In terms of the aikido throwing, would you like to volunteer to attempt to aikido throw me as a resisting opponent? That way you can see for yourself that aikido throws are useless. You can even video it from multiple angles. Would that be enough to remove your scepticism?
    Considering I'm used to throw resisting opponents in BJJ free sparring I don't feel I have to remove my skepticism about my throwing skills with a judo noob.

    As it would be clearly difficult to travel to Spain just to demonstrate to you, personally why aikido throws do not work, we can use a Throwdown where independent MAs can film us from multiple angles. I have noticed there is a throwdown taking place in Belfast and I can always ask the organiser if such a challenge would be appropriate. However, if you want to meet in the middle we can go to Paris or Marseille.
    If you are going to challenge me, you travel here. Bullshido gonsau rules are clear.


    As a note, my preference is clearly England so if you know any aikido practitioners (again, in a major City) willing to attempt to throw a real, live, resisting opponent, I would be more than delighted to show up.
    I don't know about english aikido practitioners willing to throw down.

    I stated that aikido throws do not work on people who resist. As it is primarily known as a throwing art, this is a tad inconvenient
    Well, I throw people who resist and fight back with my aikido skills.

    Naturally I am aware of the judo / aikido crossover. In fact, aikido looked like an interesting, genuinely buddhist alternative until it went awry. I never did understand how buddhism and beating someone up went together but that's monks for you.
    Aikido has nothing with buddhism other than the fact there are aikido practitioners who are buddhists, but there are also muslims, christians, atheists...

    On buddhism and beating people: Ask DerAuslander.

    On the internals/kata/aliveness debate: If you want to discuss that, I'd suggest not in YMAS.

    May I focus on the second second technique because I have seen this in shodokan sparring. I use a modified version of this in judo and it is simple, direct and effective.

    Now, the question I ask is - 'is it aikido?' By way of explanation, O'Sensei (founder of aikido for all the boxers out there) adopted a religion (Omoto, based on buddhism) which preached peace and harmony at a time when Japan was committing horrific war crimes. His horror of war drove him from violence and in 1942 he said "The real Way of a Warrior is to prevent such slaughter - it is the Art of Peace, the power of love."

    He took aikido and 'pacified' it, producing flowing 'dance-like' movements and incorporating peaceful philosophies of harmony present in Omoto and its root philosophy, Buddhism. The more destruction and war he saw, the more aikido was pacified and the more peaceful and 'flowing' it became.


    Aikido is not a fighting art and cannot be used in 'real' combat. Rather, it is a philosophy of peace and the movements are not designed to throw. They are descended from 'real' martial arts but O'Sensei intentionally removed the violence but kept the origins.
    Guy, you're totally lost. Hint: Omoto cult (not buddhism but shinko shukyo) was disbanded in 1935. Ueshiba resigned as combatives instructor in various japanese military academies in 1942, when bombs started to fall in Tokyo and moved to the countryside. He knew by his contacts in the military that Japan was going to lose the war.

    This is why no aikido practitioner can throw me. Sure, the original forms of DRAJ (aikido's great-grandaddy) were violent and are good ways to learn to fight and there are techniques any MMA fighter would immediately recognise. In fact, I am mildly disappointed in aikidoka who have missed the point about O'Sensei and his deliberate pacification of aikido. But don't take my word for it, a basic search on Google will confirm the facts and quotations in this tract.
    It seems you're buying the made up hippy aikido history developed for making aikido palatable to 60's westerners. Your problem, not mine.

    Peace and love guys (until I kick your ass, of course).
    ROFLMAO
    Last edited by DCS; 5/29/2009 5:57am at .

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