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  1. #11
    solves problems with violence supporting member
    Ming Loyalist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Judo, Hung Family Boxing
    Quote Originally Posted by division42
    The changes must not have taken place. But it appears that now they have.
    the scores in the ratings box have not changed for some reason, maybe a staff member can figure out why. although we don't like to edit people's posts on this site, if you post the scores you want to have set, a staff member may be able to fix it.

    For right now I'm not sure what even your explanation of "Aliveness" means. For all I can tell is it is a question of how 'real' our training is? It sounds like you have a completely different philosophy than what is compatible with the system. Maybe I'm wrong, but the article makes reference to a lot of things that I'm not seeing. Nor do I have that much time right now.
    it's not necessarily about how "real" the training is, it's more about using progressive resistance to test your technique and skills. we don't believe that it's possible to learn to fight well without testing the techniques on a resisting opponent.

    of course i'm not all that familiar with your particular system, but if you think that aliveness goes against the philosophy of kung fu in general, i think you are very wrong. we have always had a degree of aliveness in my school, and incorporating more of matt thornton's philosophy into our training has been both easy and has shown a remarkable improvement in the speed of the students' progession.

    Also, I mean the formatting of the website is too busy. I run the latest version of Firefox, and I agree that my formatting isn't all that great in my description, and have entered the CR's.
    the design of the site is not the product of the collective members, but of the site owner, and most people have no problem finding their way around. the look and feel of the site is really not pertinent to the discussion at hand. as long as you can read the text and follow the links we give you, you shouldn't have any serious problems. continuing to complain about the site design would generally be seen as an attempt to divert attention away from discussion of the merits of your school.

    I'll have to ask about any lineage for our grapples. If it's anything aside from what is contained within the forms. All the technique is in the forms. Adapted and translated through the owner of the form (students).
    please do. of course there are throws, takedowns and chin na in kung fu forms, but your school is claiming to teach shuai jiao. this is a separate system, and if your school claims to teach it, you have to be able to show your lineage. the lineage for every other art taught is clearly listed on the website, but the shuai jiao lineage is suspiciously absent. there's nothing wrong with teaching throws and joint locks, but calling it shuai jiao with no lineage or certification in that art is not acceptable.

    The hard sparring we do is lei tai. I don't have equipment for that and don't have the money to get it. Not fond of other peoples mouth gaurds either. So, in that manner we do have some people that do compete in lei tai and often place 1st-3rd. But no actual team (that was updated as well)
    ok, now we're getting somewhere. lei tai equipment is minimal: head gear with face cage, fingerless gloves, cup and mouthguard. a mouthguard cost between $2-$25, a cup from $5-$25, and you should be able to borrow headgear and gloves if needed. so i don't really buy that you can't afford the gear. if hard sparring is really a priority at the school, that's easy enough to make happen.

    i'm more interested in hearing about the lei tai competitors. the only lei tai tournaments that i know of are run by the USCKF . they have a national tournament in baltimore every july, as well as several regionals throughout the year. the results are published online (1st-3rd place anyway) so it should be really easy for us to verify that your school does compete and win in full contact. that would go a long way towards validating the high scores in aliveness and striking, so it would be really helpful if you could provide us with some specifics, and would get kai and i off your back about the scores you posted.

    I'll direct you to the world's ugliest site. This is where Sifu Voss and the other instructors are this weekend:

    If you have any more questions or scrutiny, let me know. I'll do the best I can. (as far as the videos go on the site, I haven't a clue what they are, I"m blocked at work)
    you're right, that site is truly bad. thanks again for answering our questions, i think we are getting a much better idea of what your school is all about.

    you should really check out the videos we are discussing, as they give a fairly bad impression of the school, compared to what you are describing. that may have a lot to do with the skepticism you are experiencing from the members here. a school that spars hard contact and wins on the lei tai needs to put that sort of video on their website.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj

  2. #12

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Northern Shaolin kung fu
    Okay, I've had a chance to view the movies that are posted. Now I know what you're talking about. And I think I've got a much better idea of what you mean by aliveness. Thanks for the extra help.

    First off. I remember when those videos were done. Most of them were at an open house. The sparring video wasn't but it was made with the same idea. Nobody wants to come into a studio and see people getting hurt. So what you have is very light stuff that people would be interested in doing themselves. So the videos are really more of an advertisement. I don't know if anyone has any footage of our other stuff. I dare say that most of the frequenters of this site could understand better by checking out the studio.

    And, as I've said before, when we train in class, we keep it to a injury avoiding level. It's after the classes that the weapons sparring, lei tai, and other, harder stuff is done. Everyone is welcome to train (after a certain point) in the lei tai and weapons sparring. Our weapons sparring is generally padded weapons, but other (myself included) also train with staff, kendo sticks and non-permanently injuring weapons, so no blades.

    Second. Tournaments. I've never been to a tournament as they're out of state most of the time and I can't afford that either (I can barely afford to train, so please don't question my ability to afford even a mouth guard). I know that our school has itself visited Madison, WI a couple times and that is where I understand they placed in the lei tai tourneys. Also we have some students that travel farther out of state, but I don't have that info. I'll see if I can get them to post it here.

    Third, in response to Kai's saying that we train in a large basement. The studio space is around 2500 sq ft, so I was actually pleasantly surprised when I found that we were higher on the list than I originally thought. It is a commercially dedicated space. (oh, and we have trained in the park for fun)

    I do not have time to edit any more. Must be off. I'll see if I can find time to log on next week to make any other changes (I will change the aliveness as well)

  3. #13

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Samurai Arts
    you guys dont know crap

  4. #14

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    The Land of Beer
    ex-KF, now Judoka + BJJ
    I observed, and judged competators from this school at a tournament in Madison, WI last May (2007). Thier forms performances were average. Thier point fighting was so-so. This particular tournament had full contact lei tai divisions, of which if anyone form this school participated it was unmemorable. Here are some video clips from youtube:

    "shuai chiao training":
    Please note, this is not formal systematized shuai chiao!!! It looks like crap stright off of a poor quality training video or book.

    "free sparring":
    Looks like a bunch of monkeys playing slappy tag to me.:icon_thum

    And this:

    Sorry, as a person with 17+ years of experience in Chinese Martial arts...I can only say that this school stands out as an example of low quality forms based training that results in mediocre to poor martial arts. I feel sorry for anyone training there, and have no doubt they drink a full cup of kung fu cult coolaid.

  5. #15
    It is Fake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Out of curiosity what is your Sifu's linage?
    Last edited by It is Fake; 1/14/2008 9:06am at .

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