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  1. #101

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    Shidare Yanagi Ryu

    Quote Originally Posted by Malo View Post
    The soke of Yanagi Ryu is the direct descendant of Iwanaga Gennojo Masamitsu, and is still teaching in Kansai Japan. Don Angier and his style have no connection to the koryu Yanagi Ryu. Check out. Don Angier created a name for his own style that uses the name of an already existing koryu -- but the style Angier's people are teaching bears no resemblance to the true Koryu Yanagi Ryu which actually has a longer name Shin Getsu Muso Yanagi Ryu.
    To clear up Don Angier i will say a few things.
    I have personally trained with him, however my personal sensei was one of his top 3 students, who i was his solitary student for several years and recieved several hours of training at a time, not just mere 45 minute sessions shared with other students.
    I received certification with Don Soke's signature.

    I will clarify 2 things, First, Don's art is named Yoshida - Ha Shidareyanagi Ryu Aikijujutsu Bugei, NOT Yanagi Ryu. Yanagi is the Japanese word for "willow" and is common for multiple Aiki arts. Shidareyanagi is the Japanese word for "weeping willow." Yes they are different types of trees and different lineages and different MA's.

    Second, Soke is a word of Anglo Saxon origin and means "legal jurisdiction," and during the shogun era it was applied to the clan leaders that passed down their authority through family lines. Shidareyanagi Ryu comes from the Yoshida family and was under a blood decendant of the Yoshida family until WW2 when the Soke was transported to California as a war refugee. The art was not allowed outside of family members, but the Soke had no family and Don begged him for training. The Soke ignored Don until he realized that there would be no heirs or family, so he drilled Don for endless hours until he learned the art and then to ensure there would be no problems with relatives back in Japan, he legaly adopted Don as his only son, and gifted him with the Soke responsibilities of the art. NO he did not change the art and did not use the title Soke to have fun (it is extremely fun!) But the title was granted purely with the understanding that it was the "RESPONSIBILITY" to preserve the art as it is.

    Don was going to let the art die without a successor because he could not find a student that would keep the integrity without flavoring it with other styles. Nevertheless, before he died he eventually was able to train a relative named Jeremy, who was deemed worthy to inherit the "responsibility" of maintaining the pure art of Shidareyanagi Ryu (Ryu just means "style").

    I will verify that it is a very difficult art that involves much focus and structural manipulation. During the begining of my training my feet hurt and not my wrists. It took months to learn to stand correctly and hold my feet in contorted positions before learning wrist locks.

    It is not for the faint of heart and it is not for those who are unwilling to suffer through the boring stuff and being fed the fun stuff little by little.

    It is also not for you. No disrespect, but it is only taught by invitation after research into a prospective student's background, with the exception of seminars that contain basic fun looking maneuvers or police training of basic takedowns for law enforcement purposes.
    If you have been to seminars you have a couple tools to use in self defense, but in the grand scheme you know nothing of the actual things that make it work.

    With general MA techniques you must use some strength and pain to control your opponent. The goal in Shidareyanagi Ryu is to control your opponent with no need to cause your opponent pain. If you maneuver your opponent into the correct position the tendons simply don't work and you are unable to move and you don't know why because you don't feel enough pain to figure out the source of your immobility. He may be holding your hand, but it is your legs that can't move so you fight against the hand that is holding you when the real escape is to sit on the floor to unchain the domino effect your skeleton is in.

    Don did not believe in ki or chi to make the moves work, but only scientific mechanical positions that make it effective.

    If he were here today he would laugh at this thread like reading a comic book. And if someone questioned the validity or genealogical background of the art, he would look at you with a sweet smile and say, "I'm French, why do you ask? Do i look like a Jamaican or somethin?"

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Burns View Post
    To clear up Don Angier i will say a few things.(...)

    Second, Soke is a word of Anglo Saxon origin and means "legal jurisdiction," (...)
    Nice necro, noob.

    Also, no-one takes you seriously anymore after the quoted gem. Have fun on MAP

  3. #103

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    I don't know why you are so offended by my information.
    You cannot say that the first statement is nonsense because it is not just a statement but a recount of my experience. It is an art based out of Sword usage and it is very necessary when using a sword to have very good balance and it took me months to build balance and strength in my feet and legs and torso to be able to move in the ways necessary for proper technique. I ended up with calluses on my feet and very sore muscles.

    Learning how to roll properly was also a difficult process it is not easy to shape your arms and back in a way that can cause you to roll well until you have built up the muscles and shape your arm positioning correctly. Until I learned how to roll well I had many bruises on my shoulders and would often have kinked neck and sore head from landing on the floor incorrectly.

    Why do you think it is nonsense that learning and art is not for the faint of heart? The truth is that learning to stand correctly and do rolls correctly is not easy but takes a lot of time learning how to stand from sitting positions into fighting stances using the muscles of only one leg rather than both. Many times while doing the drills my muscles would burn and I would spend much time on the ground breathing heavy to regain the energy to continue the drills.

    Why do you suggest that I am talking about secret techniques I never said that what I said was that it is taught by the soke by invitation, not because of secret techniques, but because there is no dire to invest time and training into someone who does not have good character and are willing to work hard. You might find teachers who will teach you who have spent time studying the art, but the main dojo is closed to people who don't have references of good character.

    As far as signature techniques go, there is nothing magical about that. Many traditional arts such this we're taught only to family or members of the same clan. So the personality of an art has signature characteristics. There is nothing magical about that, it is just plain common sense.

    If you think this thread was dead for over a decade then why are you responding?

    Why do you think it is a crazy claim that a certain amount of strength and pain is needed to control an opponent. Most MA are for fighting and causing pain.

    This martial art was developed specifically as a sword art and to be used by Samurai as a way of enforcing law within their shogun's area. The goal was not to get is silly quarrels but to train in weapon warfare. Most techniques are designed to quickly manipulate an opponent into a vulnerable position where they can easily be killed with a weapon/sword. Wasting time with pain causing techniques gives an opponent time to fight back. The goal is to trip/push/dodge/sway/redirect/whatever... to end in slicing the opponent's body.

    However, samurai arts we're not limited to battle, but also law enforcement and containing prisoners. Though techniques have the potential to cause much pain the goal is to minimize a person's ability to fight back, and that is not accomplished by pain but by leaving a person off balance or in a position they don't know escape from. That is part of why this art is taught in seminars to police. You have undoubtedly seen how cops twist someone's arm behind their back to put on them handcuffs. It is because the arm cannot fight back from that position however it is not a painful position "Unless" you fight against the position, just like the majority of the positions in shidare yanagi ryu.

  4. #104

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    Altogether, the whole start of this post was simply a discussion about Don and the lineage of Yanagi Ryu. And my reply was simply updating that Don's art is not Yanagi Ryu but Shidare Yanagi Ryu that is not from Daito but from an older Yoshida family, and that before Don died he did indeed pass on the art to his adopted grandson Jeremy, who is the new soke. I know them both personally, not just from hear-say.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Burns View Post
    Well at least you got one thing right. Our love is to preserve an "ART" more than to conquer the world.
    Then how about Mr. Williams's Navy Seal videos?

    So, are you fluent in Japanese, particularly let's say, 16th-19th century Japanese? Have you been to Japan, lived in Japanese culture for any length of time ? Studied in Japan under a legit koryu shihan/soke/sensei ? If so, which koryu bujutsu or budo ryu(ha) was it?

    How about your teacher? He was a direct student of Mr. Angier, wasn't he?

    You will note I'm being pretty respectful regarding your alleged martial arts instructors. In fact, if you really did spend years seriously studying and training in Yanagi Shidare Ryu, I can respect that as a cultural/physical activity that could be quite difficult.

    But nobody here is going to put up with you or anybody else claiming that it's anything special in regards to joint locks/ "skeletal/structural chaining" or whatever without some sort of other evidence of such a thing.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  6. #106
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    Oh, and regarding Sōke (宗家)...


    Soke: Historical Incarnations of a Title and its Entitlements
    by William M. Bodiford
    http://www.koryu.com/library/wbodiford1.html

    Who or what is a soke? If Internet websites can be believed, in the English-speaking world the Japanese word soke has become a title for individuals who claim to be "great grandmasters" or "founders" of martial arts.1 Surprisingly, however, the term is not explained in recent English-language dictionaries of martial arts directed toward general readers, nor in the more authoritative books about Japanese martial culture.2 Apparently this very obscurity provides commercial advantage when it is invoked in a competitive marketplace crowded with instructors who promote themselves not just as high-ranking black belts, but as masters or even grandmasters. This English-language usage stands in stark contrast to the connotations of the word soke in Japan where, if it is used at all, it strongly implies loyalty to existing schools, deference to ancestral authority, and conservative adherence to traditional forms. Despite what many seem to believe in the West, as a Japanese word soke has never meant "founder," nor does it mean "grandmaster."

    Confusion over the word soke, however, is not confined to people who lack Japanese-language skills; it exists in Japan as well. These misunderstandings arise ...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Burns View Post
    Well at least you got one thing right. Our love is to preserve an "ART" more than to conquer the world.
    You've spent thousands of words here touring the combat superiority of Aikijujutsu over arts that have actually been proven effective, but now effectiveness is irrelevant, because you're only interested in preserving the art. Pick one.
    "Systema, which means, 'the system'..."

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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Oh, and regarding Sōke (宗家)...


    Soke: Historical Incarnations of a Title and its Entitlements
    by William M. Bodiford
    http://www.koryu.com/library/wbodiford1.html

    Who or what is a soke? If Internet websites can be believed, in the English-speaking world the Japanese word soke has become a title for individuals who claim to be "great grandmasters" or "founders" of martial arts.1 Surprisingly, however, the term is not explained in recent English-language dictionaries of martial arts directed toward general readers, nor in the more authoritative books about Japanese martial culture.2 Apparently this very obscurity provides commercial advantage when it is invoked in a competitive marketplace crowded with instructors who promote themselves not just as high-ranking black belts, but as masters or even grandmasters. This English-language usage stands in stark contrast to the connotations of the word soke in Japan where, if it is used at all, it strongly implies loyalty to existing schools, deference to ancestral authority, and conservative adherence to traditional forms. Despite what many seem to believe in the West, as a Japanese word soke has never meant "founder," nor does it mean "grandmaster."

    Confusion over the word soke, however, is not confined to people who lack Japanese-language skills; it exists in Japan as well. These misunderstandings arise ...
    What a great article...

    Here is another excerpt regarding use of soke in Japanese martial arts, and some nice info on the difference between pre-Tokugawa martial arts and post-Tokugawa martial arts.
    "Use of the term soke (or iemoto) in martial contexts is even more complex. Before 1868, soke families that were organized into the kinds of commercial guilds described above never controlled instruction in martial arts. This is the reason so many different lineages (ryuha) of martial arts existed in premodern Japan. The contrast between teaching organizations devoted to peaceful arts (such as tea ceremony, flower arranging, and so forth) and those concerned with martial arts could not be more stark. Instruction in any of the peaceful arts was available only from a small number of familial lineages, each one of which organized itself into a commercial guild with a network of affiliated branch instructors available throughout the land. On the other hand, there existed hundreds of different martial art lineages, the vast majority of which were confined to a single location.6 While many martial lineages were consanguineous (i.e., handed down from father to son), many others were not.

    Nishiyama (1982b, 273-278) identifies several reasons why martial art lineages never developed into iemoto (a.k.a. soke) systems. Prior to the establishment of the Tokugawa peace, rapid acquisition of military prowess constituted the sine qua non of any system of martial instruction. An instructor who withheld instruction in the most advanced techniques as a family secret, as was the norm among soke who taught peaceful arts, could not have attracted students. For this reason, during the sixteenth century, military students usually attained full initiation rather quickly, after which they were free to teach all that they had learned to their own students. If anyone issued diplomas, they did so on their own authority, without having to pay license fees to any larger organization. After the Tokugawa regime imposed peace on the land, both older and new schools of martial instruction became more structured, more secretive, and developed more complex and time-consuming curriculums. Students who received diplomas no longer necessarily acquired independent rights to issue diplomas themselves.7 The ruling authorities also actively prevented any warrior groups or martial schools from developing organizational bonds across domain boundaries.8 Moreover, the rulers of each individual domain preferred to patronize only their own local martial systems, which could be kept under their own local control. Finally, in an age of peace it became practically impossible for any one martial lineage or group of lineages to demonstrate decisively their superiority over their rivals. Innovative teachers could (and did) devise new methods of martial training and establish new schools without having to risk lives to demonstrate their combat effectiveness.


    Most of what people do today in terms of Japanese martial arts probably originated post-Tokugawa, pre-Mejii (exceptions being Kodokan Judo, Shotokan Karate and it's offshoots, generic aikido, et al.). Even koryu bujutsu/budo (pre-1868) arts devleoped post 1612 or so are not true "warrior arts" for the most part...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    What a great article...

    Here is another excerpt regarding use of soke in Japanese martial arts, and some nice info on the difference between pre-Tokugawa martial arts and post-Tokugawa martial arts.
    "Use of the term soke (or iemoto) in martial contexts is even more complex. Before 1868, soke families that were organized into the kinds of commercial guilds described above never controlled instruction in martial arts. This is the reason so many different lineages (ryuha) of martial arts existed in premodern Japan. The contrast between teaching organizations devoted to peaceful arts (such as tea ceremony, flower arranging, and so forth) and those concerned with martial arts could not be more stark. Instruction in any of the peaceful arts was available only from a small number of familial lineages, each one of which organized itself into a commercial guild with a network of affiliated branch instructors available throughout the land. On the other hand, there existed hundreds of different martial art lineages, the vast majority of which were confined to a single location.6 While many martial lineages were consanguineous (i.e., handed down from father to son), many others were not.

    Nishiyama (1982b, 273-278) identifies several reasons why martial art lineages never developed into iemoto (a.k.a. soke) systems. Prior to the establishment of the Tokugawa peace, rapid acquisition of military prowess constituted the sine qua non of any system of martial instruction. An instructor who withheld instruction in the most advanced techniques as a family secret, as was the norm among soke who taught peaceful arts, could not have attracted students. For this reason, during the sixteenth century, military students usually attained full initiation rather quickly, after which they were free to teach all that they had learned to their own students. If anyone issued diplomas, they did so on their own authority, without having to pay license fees to any larger organization. After the Tokugawa regime imposed peace on the land, both older and new schools of martial instruction became more structured, more secretive, and developed more complex and time-consuming curriculums. Students who received diplomas no longer necessarily acquired independent rights to issue diplomas themselves.7 The ruling authorities also actively prevented any warrior groups or martial schools from developing organizational bonds across domain boundaries.8 Moreover, the rulers of each individual domain preferred to patronize only their own local martial systems, which could be kept under their own local control. Finally, in an age of peace it became practically impossible for any one martial lineage or group of lineages to demonstrate decisively their superiority over their rivals. Innovative teachers could (and did) devise new methods of martial training and establish new schools without having to risk lives to demonstrate their combat effectiveness.


    Most of what people do today in terms of Japanese martial arts probably originated post-Tokugawa, pre-Mejii (exceptions being Kodokan Judo, Shotokan Karate and it's offshoots, generic aikido, et al.). Even koryu bujutsu/budo (pre-1868) arts devleoped post 1612 or so are not true "warrior arts" for the most part...
    And finally, perhaps most apropos to bullshido.net in general...
    "In concluding, it is difficult to condone the use of obscure Japanese terminology to describe American social practices for which perfectly acceptable English words already exist. One must struggle to imagine how any non-Japanese could call himself a "soke" in English except as a joke. At the same time it is also difficult to regard this term with any special reverence or to become overly troubled by its misuse among self-proclaimed "grandmasters" and "founders." During the Tokugawa period the word soke designated a commercial system of hereditary privilege that took advantage of the ignorance of ordinary people for financial gain. Perhaps teachers of commercial martial art schools in America who adopt the title soke for themselves are more historically accurate in their usage than they themselves realize.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  10. #110

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    Why the heck do you care about my training if all you are going to do is find negative comments about it. My Shidare Yanagi Ryu teacher in California died and the certificate was lost during the transition to Florida. Now I study a traditional Yoshinkan Aikido style that is mixed with shodokan and kenjitsu. As for pictures and videos. I don't really need to prove anything, but I am not a liar, and various aspects of what I learn in aikijutsu activities "outside of the dojo" in spontaneous moments that are un-planed, are a great help to me in a wide variety of activities both in disarming weapons, getting free from headlocks, getting knocked down during sports without getting hurt. Yes things like that have happened to me often.

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