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  1. #1

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Championship boxing 1950.
    All old fightmanuals show vertical punching.
    Dempsey was "old school" and critizised modern boxing and also self defense.

    "I come to the conclusion that self defense is being taught wrong nearly everywhere for the following reasons."

    1. Beginners are not grounded in the four principle methods of putting the body weight in fast motion.
    A Falling Step.
    B Leg Spring
    C Shoulder Whirl
    D Upward Surge

    2. The exteremely important powerline seems to have been forgotten.

    3. The wholesale failure of instructors and trainers to appreciate the close cooperation necessary between the powerline and weight-motion results generally in impure punching-weak hitting.

    4. Explosive straight punching has almost become a lost art because instructors put so much emphasis on shoulder whirl,that beginners are taught wrongfully to punch straight without stepping whenever possible.

    5. Failure to teach the Falling Step for straight punching has resulted in the left jab being used generally as a light,auxiliary weapon for making opening and setting up,instead of as a stunning blow.

    6. Beginners are not shown the differnce between Shovel Hooks and Uppercuts.

    7. Beginners are not warned that taking long steps with hooks open those hooks into swings.

    8. The Bob-Weave are rarely explained properly.

    9. Necessity for the Three-Knuckle Landing is never pointed out.

    10. It is my personal belief that beginners should be taught all kinds of punches before being instructed in defensive moves,for nearly every defensive move should be accompanied by a simultaneous or delayed counterpunch.
    You must know how to punch and you must have punching confidence before you can learn aggresive defense.

    Because of the danger in a fistfight,it's imperative that you end the brawl as fast as possible,and the best way to do that is by a knockout.
    The knockout is far more important in fistfighting than in boxing.
    You've got to knock'em out in fistfights.

    A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.Either fist in its normal fighting position has less distance to travel on a straight line to its target than on the curve of a hook or uppercut.
    Consequently,a straight punch always should be used when:
    A. It has just as much chance of nailing the target as either of the others.
    B. When it will be just as exposive as either of the others.

    In other words,don't be taking long steps with Hooks and Uppercuts,when you should be sharpshooting with straight punches.

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    You've got to knock'em out in fistfights.
    Define K.O. I don't think it's neccessary to literally cause unconsciousness to win a fistfight, but it'd be ideal.

    In other words,don't be taking long steps with Hooks and Uppercuts,when you should be sharpshooting with straight punches.
    I'd like to add...unless your opponent opens himself up for a haymaker.

  3. #3
    Badness will not be rewarded supporting member

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Montreal, Canada
    Did he ever use chain punching in the ring? This almost sounds like an endorsement of it.


  4. #4

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    NATURE has given you, a normal beginner, the three requisites for a knockout punch. They are:




    For practical purpose, I divide a punch into two parts: a) setting the weight in motion and b) relaying the moving weight to a desired point on an opponent with a stepped-up impact or explosion.

    All full fledge punches must have that (a) and (b) combination. It is only what might be called "partial" punches that the body-weight does not play a stellar role. Partial punches are those delivered with only the weight of arms and fist - short backhands to the head, chops to the kidney or to the back of the neck, or mere cuffs to the head when in a tight clinch.

    Since we're concerned primarily with the stunning, full-fledged knockout punch, let's move on to it. Let's examine the first fundamental. How do we set the body-weight in motion?

    "There are FOUR ways of setting the body weight in motion for punching:

    1. Falling Foward.

    2. Sprining forward.

    3. Whirling the shoulders by means of the powerful back muscle, assisted by shifting weight from one leg to the other.

    4. Surging upwards, as in delivering uppercuts.

    Every punch combines at least two of those motion-methods.

    Best of all the punches is the "stepping straight jolt" delivered with either fist from the "falling step." It has fall, spring, and whirl. That stepping jolt must not be confused with the "ordinary straight punch" that is delivered at medium range without moving the feet, and depends almost entirely on the shoulder whirl. The stepping jolt is a much more explosive blow.

    "Hooks and uppercut are short-range blows that can be just as explosive as stepping jolts. However, the hooks and uppercuts are less desireable for fist-fighting, in which one tries to keep at long range as much as possible in order to avoid clinching and wrestling.

    "How does a fighter set his weight in motion by a fall? The falling procedure is simple. Remember the baby and the truck driver? (note Dempsey is refering to a diagram of a baby free falling about to land directly on top of a standing man. The baby fell straight down from the fourth floor window. It was yanked straight toward the earth by gravity. It encountered nothing to change the direction of its moving body-weight until it struck the truckman's head. However, the direction of a falling object can be changed. Let's take an example of a boy sitting on a sled and sliding down a snowny hill (note: this is also illustrated in the book). In a sense the boy and his sled are falinng objects, like the baby. But the slope of the hill prevents them from falling straight down.

    "Their fall is deflected to the angle of the hill. The direction of their "weight-in-motion" is on a slant. And when they reach the level plain at the bottom of the hill, they will continue to slide for a while. Howeve, the direction of their slide on the plain - the direction of their "weight-in-motion" - will be "STRAIGHT OUT", at a right angle to the straight-down pull of gravity.

    "Those examples of the falling baby and the sledding boy illustrate two basic principles of the stepping jolt:

    (1) Gravity can give motion to weight by causing a fall.

    (2) The direction of that "weight-in-motion" can be deflected away from the perpendicular - on a slant, or straight forward.

    "But, you ask, 'what's the connection between all that falling stuff and the straight jolt?"

    "I'll answer that question by letting you take your first step as a puncher, and I do mean s-t-e-p.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Stand in the middle of the floor. Point your left foot at any distant object in the room. Place your right foot to the rear and slightly to the right of your left foot (the book provides illustrations, this description is illustrated in figure 3). For the cahp about 5'10", the heel of his right foot should be about 18" back (and slightly to the right) of the heel of his left foot."
    "let your arms dangle loosely at your sides; you won't need to use them in the step.
    "Bend your knees slightly. Ben your body forward slightly as you shift your "weight forward on to your left foot", so that your "right foot" is resting only on the ball of the foot. Remember that the knees are still slightly bent. Teeter up and down easily (half bouncing without leaving the floor) to make certain you're in a comfortable, ballanced position. If your position doesn't feel balanced and comfortable, move your right foot about slightly - but not much - to get a better balance as you teeter. You are resting only lightly on the balls of your "right foot", remember. Stop teetering, but keep the knees slightly bent and your arms at your side.
    "NOW - WITHOUT ANY PREMLIMINARY MOVEMENTS - take a long, quick step forward with your "left" foot, toward the object at which your left toe had been pointing (this is illustrated in figure 4). I emphasive: "no preliminary movement befor the step. You unquestionably will be tempted to shift some of the weight from the "left" foot to the "right" foot, which is resting lightly on its ball. NO PRELIMINARY MOVEMENT! Just lift the "left" foot and LET THE BODY FALL FORWARD IN A LONG, QUICK STEP."
    The "left" foot should land flat and solid on the floor at the end of the step."
    "It is a quick, convulsive and extremely awkward step. Yet, it's one of the most important steps of your fistic life; for that falling step lurch is the rough diamond out of which will be ground the beautiful, straight knockout jolt. It's the gem-movement of straight punching. Try that falling-step many times. Make certain, each time, that you start from a comfortably ballanced position, that the body-weight is resting largely on the "left" leg, that the knees are slightly bent, that the arms are at your side, and that you make no preliminary movement with your "right" foot."
    "I call that forward lurch a "falling step." Actually, every step in walking involves a small "fall." Walking is a series of "falls." But in this particular step, the fall is exaggerated for two reasons:
    (1) your weight is well forward when you step off.
    (2) the step is so long that it gives gravity a chance to impart unusual momentum to your body-weight.
    The solidity with which your "left" foot landed upon the floor was caused by your momentum. The late Joe Gans rarely missed with a long, straight punch; but, when he did you could hear for half a block the smack of his left sole on the canvas.
    Although the weight of your body was resting largely upon your "left" foot when you stepped off, you didin't fall to the floor. Why? Because the alert ball of your "right" foot came to the rescue frantically and gave your body a forward "spring" in a desperate attempt to keep your body balanced upright - to maintain its equilibrium. Your rescuing "right" foot acted not only as did the slope of the hill for the sledding boy, but also as a "springboard" in the side of the hill might have functioned had the sledding boy whizzed onto a springboard on the side of the hill. The "left" foot serves as a "trigger" to the spring the "right" foot. So, the falling step sometimes is called the "Trigger step"
    "I warned: DON'T MAKE A PRELIMINARY MOVEMENT before stepping off. Had you followed yur natural inclination and shifted your weight to the right foot before stepping, that action would have started your body-weight "moving backward" - "away" from the direction in which you intend to step. Then you would have had to lose a split-second while your "right" was stopping the back motion and shifting your weight forward again before the punching step could be taken.
    Learn now and remember always in fighting you cannot afford to give your body the luxury of a useless preliminary or prepartory movment before shooting a punch. In the first place, your target may be open for only a split-second, and you must take advantage of that opening like a bolt of lightning. Secondly, preliminary movements are "give-aways" - "tell-tales" -"telegraphs" - that treacherously betray to your opponent your next action. Joe Louis was knocked out in his first fight with Max Schmeling principally because of the tell-tale movements of Joe's left jab. Schmeling timed Joe's telegraphs and smashed him again and agin with straight rights to the head. Herr Maxie smashed him every time that careless left hand beckoned."
    "You now know how to set your weight into motion for a straight jolt - by means of the FALLING STEP. Next we must consider the second part of the jolt: CONVEYING THE MOVING BODY-WEIGHT AND EXPLODING IT AGAINST THE OPPONENT."
    "However, before studying the "movements" in conveyance and explosion, it will be neccesary for you to understand clearly the LINE OF POWER that all successful conveyance and explosion must follow."

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Dempsey on the powerline.

    The powerline runs from either shoulder-straight down the lengt of the arm-to the first knuckle of the little finger,when the fist is doubled.
    Remember,the powerline ends in the first knuckle of the little finger of either hand.
    Gaze upon your pinkie with new respect.You might call that pinky knuckle the exit of your powerline,the muzzle of your cannon.You'll understand the powerline if you feel it out.
    Stand up.Walk towards a wall untill you're arms length from the wall when facing it.Put your heels together.You should be standing just far enough from the wall so that you can barely tuch it with your tip of the middle finger of your right hand,at a point directly opposite of your chin.
    Touch that chin-high point with your middle finger tip.Now move back,three or four inches,but keep your heels together.
    Double your right fist firmly.In makiing a fist,close the fingers into the palm of the hand,then close the thumb down over the outside of the finger.
    The little knuckle is down towards the floor.
    With your arm stiffly extended,let your body sway slowly forward,without moving your feet,until your fist (still upright) is pressed so firmly against the chin-high spot,that your fist and stiff arm are supporting the weight of your leaning body. (upright fist=vertical fist)
    Note that the lower part of your fist (still upright),particularly the little knuckle,provides the natural solid end,of the firm straight line,from shoulder to fist,that are supporting your weight.
    Note particularly that this line runs unswervingly through your wrist to the little knuckle.
    Now,with your upright fist,stil supporting your weight at the chin-high spot,try to shift your pressure from the little knuckle to the upper knuckles.Then turn your fist so that the palm is down.(Horisontal fist)
    When you attempt those changes,you should feel immediately that the new pressure position of your fist lack the solidity of the first position.
    And you should feel and see that a change in position swerved the powerline at the wrist,putting your wrist in a hazardous landing position.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Now that you have felt out the powerline,you can appreciate that the greatest possible solidity would be achieved if you lande every punch with the little knuckle first.
    Unfortunately,however,the hand bone behind the little knuckle is the most fragile of the five backbones.It can be broken most easily.
    You must not attempt to land first with the little knuckle.
    Instead you must try to land first with the knuckle next to your pinky (ring finger).We'll call that the 2nd knuckle.Aiming with the second knuckle usually brings about a three knuckle landing.Those three knuckles are,middle,second (ring) and pinky.If you aim with the second knuckle,those three knuckles usually will land together because the average fist slopes slightly from the middle knuckle to the pinky.
    Such a three knuckle landing not only prevents the hand bone behind any one knuckle from bearing all the punch shock,but it also permits punching,almost exactly along the power line.
    Rarely will one of those knuckles make a solo landing.
    But if you aim with the little knuckle,you risk a dangerous solo landing on the fore head or blocking elbow.
    Always aim with the second knuckle,the one next to your pinky,and let the other knuckles take care of themselves.They take care of themselves allright,for the shape of the fist makes it impossible for them to do otherwise.
    Clench your right fist and inspect its knuckles.Your thumb knuckle is out of the way,completely separated from the four knuckles on striking edge of your fist.More than that,your thumb knuckle is the farthest away from your pinky knuckle,farthest away from the end of the powerline.
    Nature took care of that.Never double cross nature,by trying to hit him with that thumb knuckle.It breaks easily,keep it out of the way.
    The knuckle of your index finger (the one next to the thumb) is fairly prominent,but not as prominent as the knuckle of your middle finger.
    In some face punches and most body blows that index knuckle will land with the other three,for a four knuckle landing.
    That's okay,let the index knuckle come along for the ride.
    Under no cirkumstances,however,try to land first with that index knuckle.
    If you do,you'll not only break your powerline,but you may break your wrist.Beware likewise of trying to land first with the prominent middle knuckle,the source of most hand injuries.
    Such aiming will slant your hand off the power line and,at the same time, endanger the middle knuckle and it's handbone.
    When that middle knuck makes a solo landing,it's prominence prevents the other knuckles from helping to absorb some of the punch shock.
    That shock or pressure is terrific in any full fledged punch,particularly when you nail an opponent with a head blow just as he is stepping in to you.In that split second,your fist must withstand the shock pressure of an explosive collision between two hurtling body weights.

    Let me repeat,if your punch is landed correctly,in powerline fashion,three knuckles-pinky,second(ring) and middle-will share the pressure and distribute it over the three hand bones behind the knuckles.
    That lessens the chance of brusing or crushing any one knuckle,or fracturing any one hand bone.
    Most professional and amateur boxers suffers from hand injuries during their careers even though their fist are protected with bandages,tapes and gloves,because they don't make a fist properly.
    As I pointed out earlier,the hands have no such protection in a fistfight.
    You must land correctly,not only for powerline explosiveness,but for hand protection.

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    i dont think he used chain punching-he is a boxer!!
    Just to let you know he was a heavyweight champion some consider him as one of the greats!!!

  9. #9
    Ready are you? What know you of ready? supporting member
    Little Idea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    EBMAS WT(& Prenatal Yoga)
    how about you post a link instead?
    If a `religion' is defined to be a system of ideas that contains unprovable statements, then Godel taught us that mathematics is not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one. -- John Barrow

    Talk to TBK's boyfriend:

  10. #10

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Submission Wrestling.
    Vertical fists are used sometiems in boxing and MMA. They;re just not as effect as getting that twist on the wrist in there.

    "Wrestling is the Martial Art of America";
    "If you don't know how to wrestle you don't know how to fight, that's the prerequisite to fighting" David Tank Abbott
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.

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