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  1. #21

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    LongFist CMA
    Its a fair question.

    McDojo, is it what you do or is it what you think?

  2. #22
    You are right. I admit it. I don't know much about Kuang Yin. Tell me about his style or styles? Educate me.

    I agree that most advanced martial artists end up creating their own personal style. Most guys just teach their system though - Bruce promoted the idea as a goal. I think his work was valuable.

    >> One should know real emptiness as the state where there is no obscurity and the clouds of confusion have cleared away. - Miyamoto Musashi 1645

  3. #23
    Okay (reading) .. it says here: he invented "sticky hands" .. and that this is the guy that came up with the 5 elements ..

    Tai Tzu Chang Chuan

    Originally developed by the Emperor Chao, Kuang Yin in 960 AD. The style originally had a single 32 move Long Fist form, but eventually grew to have as many as 12.

    Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is said to be one of the early influances on the Chen style of Taji Quan, and an influance on North Mantis and Ngo Cho Keun as well.

    A powerful style with flowing movements, it's populartiy rivaled that of the Shaolin in the Ming dynasty and was standard military training during that time.

    The Emperor was a student of Li Hu, Ba Fa founder "Chen Po" and also created an internal version of the system based on Chen Po's teachings. This was a closed door aspect to the system, and was rarely taught outside of the Chao family untill reacently.

    Later, during the Southern Sung dynasty, his descendants created another art bearing the same name. This art was shorter and had more of an upper body emphasis than the original. Generally, both arts are taught side by side today as they are complamentary to one another.

    .. I am not mocking you, I assure you that I am interested. What ranges does this style cover? What sort of kicks did it have? What sort of throws?

    >> One should know real emptiness as the state where there is no obscurity and the clouds of confusion have cleared away. - Miyamoto Musashi 1645

  4. #24

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    The MMA movement is about learning where a punch fits into grappling and where a takedown fits into boxing. That is what Bruce was doing. Its not what Kuang Yin was doing, sorry.

    Actually, Chao, Kuang Yin DID intagrate material from all the various styles he studied during his life. His Tai Tzu Chang Chuan was NOT just a bunch of stuff all thrown into one hat and jumbled. It was developed into an all inclusive, synergistic combat system complete with Kicks, Punches, Locks, Throws. The ground fighting is more of a "do as much dammege with the throw as possible an pound 'em as hard as you can with out tieing yourself up" kind of thing (Typical of Chinese arts in general) and not the ring stuff you see today.

    He later taught the system to the Shaolin who used it as a base in several other style. It was eventualy the core of the Shaolin curriculem during the Ming dynasty.
    Also, it was taught to the Chinese military during the Ming and becaome VERY wide spread during that time because of this. Often soldiers who were well versed in the system would later go of and create their own styles. Northern preying Mantis is an exapmle of the use of Kuang yin's system being used as a base for another new style. If you compare the two, you see many similarites.

    So, What Bruce lee did was nothing more than any Chinese martial artist would have done in the more advanced stages of training. He just talked about it louder, that's all.

    I think KungFuDoesWork brought up a good point about it being a Karate world back then (When Bruce was still alive). From my observation, Karate is much more ridged, and tends to favor conformity, where as the Chinese are very creative people, and thier Kung Fu reflects that.

    The fact that Bruce Lee had to educate us on how Kung Fu works does not speak all that greaty on him, but more poorly on the people he was talking to simply because he had to say it. It's a common sense, no brainer to a Chinese practitoner.

    If Bruce had never said anything, we [Kung Fu guys] would all still be living it anyway because his thinking is a standard part of Kung Fu training.

    As for the MMA comment, ALL Chinese arts do this. The MMA is nothing new, or special. It's just well promoted right now. There is nothing going on there that I haven't seen in Kung Fu, with the possible exception of the ground huggers snugling eachother thing. Heck, I have seen Don Fry use an almost perfect "Monkey Pounds the Earth" in a number of his fights, Clasic Traditional Kung Fu at it's best.

    Kung Fu is built for muiltiple armed opponents and surviving those attacks when you are out numbered. There is no way you want to be tied up on the ground to submit a guy in those situations. Even in today's streets, the same thinking applies. It's not a matter of one on one skill, it's a matter of geting out alive even if the odds are against you. In those situation being tied up on the ground is deadly.

    Ground fighting is better for Cops, who need to take a suspect down and cuff them, or for controlling a drunken freind in a skirmish.

    That being said, in today's world ground fighting DOES have it's place, and I don't know any traditionalist who would not at least investigate it.

    MMa is nothing new, or revolutionary like you guys think. In China it's been the standard operation procedure since time began.

    Edited by - Royal Dragon on August 29 2002 08:14:48

  5. #25

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Interting question, I don't fully have the time to get into it as I'm getting late for work. But I'll explain alittle.

    Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is the name of two styels that make up the Chao Family arts (It's more complcated than that due to it's age and ebvlution, but I'll stick to the simple right now)

    The original is a Northern Long fist system that consists of Lomg Medium and Short range methods that are simply and easily apppied under stress as well as more sophistcated techniques that are used against more experianced attackers who may be able to counter your defenses. The Southern is similar, but much shorter and less mobile. It was designed to fill "The holes" in the Northern and to be used as a foundational training system prior to learning the Northern system as well. The techniques are generally simpler, and more direct, a bit more "Karate" like in appliction (same types of techniques though, just different philosophy in appplieing them).

    One them of both arts is siple ease of application. It's not aloto of fancy whu Shu, but mostly straight combat.

    Throws are thypical Chines style throws, with a nuber of "Throw by the face" kind of stuff.

    Kicks are simpe, front snap kick, side Kick Creasant Kick. It does include some jumping spining type kicks at the higher levels (Northern), but I haven't seen to much emphasis so far. maostly it's kick, punch lock throw kind of thinking.

  6. #26
    PeedeeShaolin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    New York
    BJJ, Karate,
    So KungFuDoesWork is saying that Emin Boztepe and William Cheung suck?

    "Do not become entranced by impractical or useless movements. Do not be categorized as one who "Learns all there is to know about less and less until he ends up learning everything there is to know about nothing." -Ed Parker
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC

    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!

  7. #27

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Question, since this is from my site, could you point out where I specifically said he invented Stiky hands?? And the Five Elements??

    Or did you just fabricate that??

    Edited by - Royal Dragon on August 29 2002 22:43:32

  8. #28
    No, that was from another site .. I read two or three pages online that night .. that one was very brief .. here it is: .. I see now that I read it wrong. It doesn't make that claim but just says that they teach it. It was really late at night. My bad.

    Northern Long Fist sounds cool. I'd like to learn more about it. Kicks, punches, locks, throws .. it sounds pretty comprehensive. To be one of the favorites at Shaolin it had to be impressive. I'd like to study Kuang Yin's findings ~ see what he taught. Did he write any books himself?

    In my limited exposure to Preying Mantis I was very impressed by the hooking parry type defense. I use what I call a "broken stick" system of parries as part of my style now. The arm is bent at the joints.

    I don't use many single-hand defenses. If I do they are stops, redirections/parries or guards. Stops are like trapping - stopping the strike in its developement by shoving, grabbing or slapping the arm or upper body. My guard is like .. you know, bouncing his attack off of your shoulder and bent arm like you have a wing there or something or catching the attack with a bent arm .. twisting .. or hooking it with an elbow. Most people throw elbows for offense - for me they are defense. If a guy gets a good fast one in there and its too late to get my hands up I'll dodge and throw an elbow at it and often deflect it or at least smack it good enough to stop its force.

    I mainly use two-handed defenses so I can be ready to grab or strike with both my dukes up. On a catch and parry, the parrying hand is loose and bent and may slap or may hook with the wrist or the elbow.

    My defenses are a lot more Kung Fu-ish than Karate-ish. I'd like to see more Kung Fu - to see what innovations people made on techniques similar to mine in that respect. I'd like to take my own stab at interprating some of the forms ~ having a different point of view from most students.

    The ground and pound type ground game sounds effective enough. Though I train in straight grappling techniques, I tend to use them to set up a variety of ground stikes and kicks. Once I get one of his arms across his chest I'll use diving punches throwing all of my weight down. I'll slide a leg through and kick up at the jaw if its worth the risk. Pound the groin ala Keith Hackney. hehe. Use leg locks and takedowns to set up a straight kick to the groin from the ground. I am good at taking people's knees out from a sitting position. Pulling his hair to get a shot at the throat. Pushing myself up with one arm and shooting a cross through. Stomping with the knee and elbows. Using crossfaces and shoves to get a shot at the side of the head. Punching his elbows and knees and wrists. Using arm bars to shove his arm across and trap. - - - I understand that there is a LOT more to the ground game than just hugging in the guard. I'd like to see what Kuang Yin came up with. I love to see my findings invented already in other arts. It makes me feel like I am on the right track.

    I have been studying some Chin Na lately, to see if there are things about the wrist and elbows that I missed in studying Japanese arts. Mostly, its the same concepts.

    There is a good book on wrestling out now that you might check out. I've been using it as a review. "Winning Wrestling Moves" by Mark Mysnyk, Barry Davis and Brooks Simpson. Forward by Dan Gable.


    What can you tell me about Kung Fu's hidden kick? I have a kick that I call a "cross-stamp" (thinking of a new name for it) that people say resembles the hidden kick in concept. I'll describe it to you in another thread if you are willing to compare them for me.

    I am not trying to steal from other martial arts and develope a system or anything, don't worry. I am just trying to understand and document my learning process like Bruce did. I know he wasn't the first to cross-train ~ but c'mon, he did inspire a lot of people to do that ~ and all of those old mixed martial arts are canonized now. JKD is still ecclectic. It is an art built on the concept of being ecclectic ~ so not really a martial art but an attitude. His life's work was promoting an attitude more than an art. I think that has some uniqueness to it.

    The MMA world might not be perfect - but they promote the same attitude somewhat. I'd like to see the UFC get away from JUST the octagon. Some fights in some different terrain might be interesting. Like, a narrow bridge or a large flat area with no fense or someplace with obstacles.

    >> One should know real emptiness as the state where there is no obscurity and the clouds of confusion have cleared away. - Miyamoto Musashi 1645

  9. #29

    *I spelled develop with an e on the end, sorry.

    * That elbow defense, here is a sample: the guy throws a right cross .. you don't see it in time to get your guard up so you throw your right shoulder backwards and down to your right - pulling your head along with it as you dodge back - twisting at the waist and pivoting on the ball of your left leg (or stepping) - you wheel your shoulders around - as you do this you let your left shoulder and elbow fly up. (Your right hand flies up and shields your face) - Anyway, your left elbow parries his punch. You circle it around and down to cover your ribs ready to guard low with your left arm and high with your right (his left is his arm that didn't just punch) - and step in with your left foot and you are closing-in with a guard stance.. or step back or whatever is necessary. :P

    Another example, a guy to your left throws a sucker punch and you have little time to react. You duck to the right and shoot your left shoulder up - your arm flies up and you deflect his punch with your tricep. Both your arms are up and ready now.

    Another example, on a two-handed catch and parry you shield with your close hand while your other hand (instead of a standard parry) comes up and outward in a circle and slaps the arm with your tricep/elbow and hooks it out of the way as you shoot in for a strike or push with your shielding hand and then - your parrying hand is cocked and ready to strike to a side where it has already worked past the arm - with a cross or "reverse" punch.

    * The sliding the leg through kick is like this. You are in the mount, you take a step with your left leg and hold yourself up with your right arm and shoot your right leg through with a straight kick to his chin/jaw. - then wheel it around and back under you or wheel yourself into a side guard bringing a hook down to his face.. and so on.

    Its a little risky but you can surprise people with it (it is a fast move) and it can break a guy's jaw pretty easy. If you miss, the shock of a foot flying past his head at 100mph from out of nowhere is going to give you a moment to react ~ kick with the other leg, grab the hair, grab an arm, chop the neck. - This move takes some skill to get right. Its a little risky.

    - is this stuff familiar at all?

    >> One should know real emptiness as the state where there is no obscurity and the clouds of confusion have cleared away. - Miyamoto Musashi 1645

  10. #30

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Lol on Dokungfu site. the sad thing is I don't think they teach Tai Tzu there. It looks like it's all Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua. I don't see a single Tai Tzu set in thier whole system. There was a big war on KFO last year over the breakup between them and my Sifu. If you go there and do a search on my name, you'll find it.

    So far, most of his Ground work seems to be similar to other standard Chinese arts. I don't have much experiance with it myself. What I need are training partners to help me decipher the sets. I get application of them, but with out anyone to work the system with I'm really just memorising the forms. That's why I teach my Shaolin, 'cause I've actually done it. I'm still learning the Tai Tzu.

    I do see a good number of sweeps, take downs, trips and throws in the base sets though, as well as lot's of Chin Na, and some attacks that could only be translated to hammering a downed opponent wile you remain on your feet. I wish I had time to get into more detail, but I'm late for work as it is.

    As far as writing, I think Kuang Yin only wrote the 32 move form down. It was recorded in Wood block carvings (like for printing) that the Chao family still has today. I supose it would be a great thing to have a copy of that (I do by the way), IF you could read 1000 year old Chinese. It's written in a rare dialect to boot, so I think we would need an archyologist with skills in ancient languages to ever figure it out. I hear the Chao fmily themselvs still practice the original set, but it's closed door, and only decsipels get to learn it. All of the moves from it are found throughout the system though, so us commoners still learn them. I think the family views the form a "Sacred" or something. It can't be anything too special martial wise as all of it's moves are found in the other forms. It's guarded like a historical museum peice, you have to be speacial to learn it.

    LOL on the Keth hackny thing. My Girlfeind trins at the same Kempo school he did before he opened his own club. She'a Brown belt now, and used to train under him when he was there.

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