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  1. #41
    Shuma-Gorath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    BJJ - Homeland Security
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jettatore
    I now need to clarify why rules listed favor the grappler over the striker, since logical objection so far has spanned from there. Also I need to clarify that by grappler, I was considering only the takedown-bjj/wrestlers. I've never see any of these types go for a traditional knockout throw that keeps them standing and the other guy incapacitated, thats something a traditional Japanese JuJutsu man would do (whose goal is not to go to the ground), or even Judo and to some degree, Kung Fu, Hapkido and Karate. But then again throwing someone on there spine or head is against the rules. So clarifying that by grappler, I was focusing BJJ/Wrestler guys that fight on the ground almost exclusively aside from there sloppy crap boxing and we're back to square one, now with comments.

    In particular, the following fouls favor the grappling arts while on the ground....

    2. Eye gouging of any kind. (digging at the eyes while combining it with other barred moves, like grabbing the clavicle or balls isn't going to make all that "chess like" manuvering on the ground very easy to accomplish unless your damned fast, accurate and efficient with your ground JuJitsu. It would at least end the 2 minutes of rolling around on the ground and would probably require the grappler to adopt simmillar animalistic techniques to survive/escape)
    3. Biting. (same as above, effective on many areas such as tendions, or muscle)
    5. Fish hooking. (the nose, probably not terribly usefull though unless combine with pulling at the groin in opposite directions which could possibly make the beloved Gracie guard position completely ineffective)
    6. Groin attacks of any kind. (I'm sorry, the ability to attack the groin with ferocity is going to make it very difficult for someone to pull of that arm bar, at this point they are just going to want to get away)
    7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent. (not a big deal here)
    8. Small joint manipulation. (someone already discussed how this could be effective against submission wrestling, I'm sure even non-grapplers could use this to their advantage, combined with the other barred moves to level the playing field on the ground)
    11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea. (if the guy on the ground has a strong grip and gets ahold, this could end a fight on the ground very quickly, grappler or no grappler)
    12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. (obviously anyone could do this, and done in the right spot this is going to make it awful hard for the opponet to work out his armbar/leg lock whatever, again especially when combined with the other barred moves)
    13. Grabbing the clavicle. (used in combination with other barred moves this could be very effective for escape)

    And these fouls (with some overlap) further limit the stand-up artist...

    2. Eye gouging of any kind. (this basically limits you to knockout type blows and boxing jabs, nothing quick and accurate allowed like a finger strike)
    6. Groin attacks of any kind. (Can't even kick the guy in the balls, one less thing the grappler has to worry about when standing up. Kicking to the balls wouldn't be terribly usefull if he was actually in the process of going for the takedown, but before that it's just something he doesn't have to defend against and allows him to keep a wider more open stance while at the same time giving him more protection to plan his takedown)
    11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea. (again, no accurate, fast type strikes allowed here)
    14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent. (think getting someone in a standing armbar, taking to the ground and finishing with a kick while your still standing)
    15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent. (same as above but not nearly as usefull)
    16. Stomping a grounded opponent. (this means if you knock someone down all you can do is really kick him in the legs and the sides, thats pretty useless)
    17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel. (can't throw a straight front kick or spinning back kick to the kidney?)
    18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. (can't use a standing throw to end the match?)

    Basically, the ground is artificually made a relatively safe place to take your sweet time and use "chess-like" maneuvering to set up strategic armbars and leg locks. Throw the rules out the window and the ground is no longer a chess match, thats for damn sure.

    First and foremost, above and beyond all the rules. I'm not seeing any talented strikers signing up for these events to begin with!!! Take this video as an example of what I consider talented strikers.

    I'm sure you've all seen this clip before, but these guys can kick, fast and accurately and with quite a bit of force, in particular I'm focusing on the Monk in orange. I find it hard to believe one of these so called Jujitsu experts would have an easy time taking him to the ground in the first place, let alone surviving any type of contact from one of their strikes. Thats pretty much why there is no contact this video. The Tae Kwon Do guy really can't hit the monk at all and the monk has too much self respect to injure the TWD practitioner, nor do they need to connect to know who would be connecting, it's plain as day. The strikers I have seen in the UFC are sloppy strikers, even the somewhat successfull ones who have managed knockouts but double in solid groundwork, and most especially the pure standup guys that have decided to enter. I have yet to see a striker with this sort of speed, accuracey, balance and reaction time enter the ring.

    So all the BS rules aside, the bottom line is that if these guys were in there with someone as fast and skilled as the man in orange, they would never even get close enough for grappling to come into play. It would be a moot point, yet strikers like this simply don't exist in the competitive MMA sporting environment. Yeah the UFC is looking for strikers to entertain it's fans, but they sure as hell don't want this guys like this in the ring killing people either.

    wing chun; didn't read

  2. #42
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Haha, wc;dr. Yay, a new catchphrase captured in the wild.

  3. #43
    10th level Superlesson Grandmaster

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Currently Inactive
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Phrost, your avatar is so hypnotic. I wish it came with sound. I wanna hear the sissy scream.
    Who, for Pete’s sake! Is opposing science? In fact, we want MORE science by CRITICALLY ANALIZING the evidence-Connie Morris, Kansas State BOE (bolding and underlining part of original quote, red is my emphasis)

    As long as you try to treat your subjective experiences as if they were objective experiences, you will continue to be confounded by people who disagree with you.-some guy on an internet messageboard

  4. #44
    Carpe Noctem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Too close to Flint
    BJJ, MACP (hiatus)
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh jeebus. By all means, let's trot out the claim that the monk would be killing people if he hit them. Are people really that ignorant about how much it can take to shut a human being down? ESPECIALLY without weapons? "Oh, I can tell those hits would've connected"...well so fucking what? If the tool is pulling his shots, we don't really know how effective they are, now do we?

    ****, this argument is giving ME a seizure, and I'm a shitty fighter...

  5. #45
    It is Fake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What the hell are you and Dagon talking about. Let us look at rule sets:

    The following are not permitted:

    1. Excessive force or any malicious action with the intent to cause damage to the opponent.
    2. Strikes with elbow, knee, or head.
    3. Punching, Kicking or chopping to the opponent's head or neck.
    4. Uncontrolled swinging punches.
    5. Repeatedly pushing and shoving an opponent out of the ring, causing a stoppage in the action.
    6. Kicking to the groin or any part of the leg.
    7. Holding on to opponent with both hands without executing a technique.
    8. There is not to be wrestling or grappling. Takedowns and joint locks are not allowed.
    9. Pulling or grappling any of the opponent's articles of clothes.
    10. Use of Foul language, gestures or verbal threat toward the opponent or another person.

    2) Head - The sides and front of the head covered by the head protector shall be open to moderate contact for the Advanced Division only. In the Intermediate Division the face may be aimed at, but no contact is allowed. The back of the head and neck shall not be attacked nor aimed at.
    3) Attacking the back or back of the opponentís head intentionally
    4) Attacking the opponentís face severely with hands or fist

    Illegal targets
    1. Back and top of the head
    2. Spine
    3. Neck and throat
    4. Entire knee and knee joint
    5. Groin the leg only
    6. Inside of thigh
    7. Shin, other than to check

    Illegal techniques
    1. Knee strikes 8. Floor or ground fighting
    2. Elbow strikes 9. Groin Strikes
    3. Finger strikes 10. Open hand strikes to the face
    4. Take-downs or throws 11. Sweeps to the opponent’s back leg or sweeps that attempt both legs of an
    5. Joint locking or breaking attempts opponent.
    6. Head butts 12. Dangerous blind attempts at spinning hand or foot strikes.
    7. Biting

    Wow so let me get this straight. UFC favored (notice past tense) grapplers. Damn near every type of TMA competition (K-1 to point sparing) favors striking. WTF??

    UFC and few others are the only ones that at least try to find a balance between the different ranges.

    A pure striker will not win at NAGA. A pure grappler will not win at The 40th Annual AKA Grand Nationals.

    This argument makes no sense.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 4/05/2006 10:34am at .

  6. #46
    "I feel naked I was so distracted by your penis"
    Dagon Akujin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    DETROIT WHAT! (and surrounding upper-class burbs)
    Ving Tsun
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is It Fake??: Holy ****! Those rules suck 100 times worse. Why did you think I would like them at all? Don't pull me into that!

    Jettatore: At first I thought you were an idiot and then you posted that video. Then I realized you were just a troll. Can you trolls not put _ing _un in your style field? You make the semi-retarded look downright retarded by association.

    ...should let the athletes that compete in the sport decide how limiting a ruleset is to them... These little rules really just dont make that much differance in the majority of the fights, the people who are winning now would still be winning and they'd be doing it pretty much the same way.
    Totally. I guess it'd be nice to get the thoughts of some of the fighters on some of the rules. My main contension comes from how I've seen takedowns change. Hoyce used to place his head and back very high up on who he was taking down, negating downward elbows and many other strikes. He'd then end up on his back instead of climbing someone for a mount. Now-a-days most people seem to shoot much lower than I remember in the earlier UFCs.

    It's like groin strikes. If you know someone is going for your balls, you'll stand a little differently (higher, legs tighter). I like that part of the strategizing element.

    JohnnyCache: Headbutts could go either way. I think in earlier days grapplers seemed to use them more, and now I think strikers might be able to use them more since there is more standup/running into each other. "Their removal favors the more conditioned of a pair of fighters, not strikers or grapplers." Definately true. And cut doctors, which is who I first said the rule most favors since I see this rule as about equal or favoring strikers if they get to stay on the ground more.

    Dagon Akujin... clearing the air since.... today?

  7. #47
    Teh El Macho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Porcupine/Hollywood, FL & Parmistan via Elbonia
    creonte on hiatus
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DropThaBomb
    UFC's kinda gay, good grapplers almost always win, never the good strikers
    Maybe in your la-la-la universe.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

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    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris

  8. #48
    TehDeadlyDimMak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Sanda, BJJ
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How can you have a fighting tournament without actions intended to do damage towards the opponent...

  9. #49
    Fearless Ukemi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    JJ of the B variety
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    Strong Machine is right... there is a definite bias towards striking now.

    It's what the rednecks, homophobes, and casual MMA fans want to see.

    I have to agree. Every time I watch UFC with just about anyone, they always get pissed when the fight goes to the ground. "This is boring, stand them up." "I want to see someone get knocked the **** out!" Most people who watch this stuff are ignorant and can't even tell why someone tapped if the submission is not a blatantly obvious RNC or arm bar.

  10. #50
    Torakaka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Kaka village
    Kitty Pow Pow!!!
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    even during Kat's last fight when she and her opponent were struggling on the ground (before she got mounted) everyone was sshouting "STAND THEM UP!"
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA

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