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  1. #1
    poidog's Avatar
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    Jun 2004
    Sanctum Sanctorum, SoCal

    DBMA Kali Tudo (tm) (longish read)

    (Admins: I wasn't sure where to put this thread - feel free to move it as you see fit)

    Hey all,

    Guro Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny has written a phenomenal article to coincide with the release of the DBMA Kali Tudo (tm) material. He sent the article out via 'eskrima-digest' so I don't think he'll be chafed to find I've posted it here. It addresses the general topic of "If Kali (Eskrima/Arnis/ad naseum) empty-hand is so **** hot, why don't we see it in the Octagon/Cage/ad naseum?"

    Those of you who know me, also know I'm about as close to being a Dog Brothers nutrider as it gets without actually being one. That notwithstanding, I think if you read the article you'll at least be a little more open minded to seeing what there is to be offered. As a side note, I was in LA a couple of weeks ago for the DBMA short impact weapons seminar and Guro Crafty was kind enough to show us some of the Kali Tudo (tm) blew my mind (and as Guro Crafty was kind enough to demonstrate on me, I can attest that there is some legitimate pain that can be induced using the material).

    In the article he addresses such issues as "well, this stuff is for the street and therefore too deadly for the Octagon" and...well, it's probably easier just to read the article.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
    Kali Tudo 5.1


    Those motivated principally by young male ritual fighting will always be a
    large percentage of the martial arts world. A very large percentage of them
    will cease to train as they achieve whatever competitive level that they
    will and face the prospect of decline.

    In contrast, Dog Brothers Martial Arts (DBMA) has as its mission "To Walk as
    a Warrior for All Your Days". In our vision, The Path of the Warrior is a
    path Of Life, and it is For Life. As such, it must embrace all facets of
    Aggression -- not only young male ritual hierarchical fighting.

    As such DBMA seeks to prepare for the un-ruled and unruly world wherein 360
    awareness and unequal and unexpected situations are the criteria. This
    means that tools, tactics and techniques ("the Three Ts") that exceed the
    inherent limitations of hierarchical fighting will be used-which of course
    presents the perennial question of how to prepare the Three Ts. The
    hierarchical competitor knows his Three Ts because he uses them on a
    resisting opponent, but "secret techniques" and "too deadly techniques" tend
    to be an untested techniques-at least as far as the individual being taught
    them is concerned!

    So, what are we who seek to prepare ourselves for the full panoply of
    Aggression to do? Is there a way to test these skills in the Cage? Indeed,
    do we have something to offer today's MMA competitor?

    I believe that we can accept the challenge to bring a modified version of
    Kali Silat to the Cage that will enable us to test ourselves and our "Three
    Ts" in a way that allows us to deepen our non-sportive fighting skills. And
    I believe that today's MMA competitor, even though he lacks substantial
    portions of our skill sets, can incorporate some of what we do to his
    substantial benefit.


    Most of us are familiar with many stories of embarrassing and/or sad endings
    for those who felt that their approach to fighting was "too deadly" for
    martial sport. Some of these were seen in the early days of the BJJ
    triggered UFC revolution. In the context and crucible of the octagonal cage
    the theories, techniques, training and performance of many martial arts
    systems and styles were found lacking.

    This has led however to the UFC and similar events such as Pride being
    considered by many as THE legitimate laboratory for what works in unarmed
    combat. People of this persuasion tend to respect only combat sports
    systems such as BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Sombo, Greco-Roman, and Wrestling--
    the blend of which we may call "Generic Mixed Martial Arts".

    Those who claim their technique is "too deadly" for this form of fighting
    are seen as self-deluded fools who, unwilling to train hard with resisting
    training partners and hostile opponents, are probably afraid to put
    themselves to the test- often with good reason. As I once heard one person
    of this school of thought say, "If someone tries plucking my eyeball out I'll
    neck crank his butt into a wheel chair." One can often hear something to
    the effect of "I can do that biting, eye plucking stuff too, and my delivery
    system (i.e. my physical animal and its skills) are superior to yours."


    Let's take a look at this thought process a bit further.

    From the beginning of the UFC there have been rules-- and the list has
    expanded considerably since then, so it is clear there are some techniques
    that are "too much". The following list may not be complete, but if I
    remember correctly from when I was a judge at UFC 10, the original rules
    prohibited biting, gouging, eye attacks, small joint locks (toes, fingers)
    and fishhooks. Since then the list has expanded, and depending on the event
    typically the prohibited techniques will be some or all of the following:
    groin strikes, head butts, elbows, elbows to the head, kicks to a man on the
    ground, kicks to the head of a man on the ground, kicks to the legs of a man
    on the ground, knees, knees to the head of a man on the ground, strikes to
    the spine, etc and so forth.

    Why is it that these techniques are "too much"? Although it may seem
    intuitively obvious (analogous to Supreme Court Justice Potter's infamous
    definition of pornography "I know it when I see it.") upon reflection, is
    this really an sufficient criterion? Not really. I think we can be more
    precise than this.

    Aggression has different purposes. A large percentage of those in martial
    arts are young males looking to compete in ritual hierarchical contests. No
    surprise here-- in the continuum of a human male's life-- that is what young
    males tend to do. (Females compete too, but in general their behavior in
    this regard is different.)

    Social groups are hierarchical groups-contrast "the anonymous horde" of a
    school of minnows. Social groups (e.g. a pack of wolves) consist of animals
    that band together for mutual benefit. To the extent that hierarchical
    contests damage the loser, the pack/tribe/etc becomes weakened-thus it makes
    perfect sense that hierarchical contests have rules and limitations.


    So where does this leave those of us who have purposes outside of and beyond
    hierarchical competition-what we in Dog Brothers Martial Arts call "To Walk
    as a Warrior for all your days"? We seek to defend our land, women and
    children-not to engage in fair fights. Thus, precisely what is "too much"
    for cage fighting is exactly what interests us!

    We need to think about this with clarity because again and again we have
    seen many who say their techniques are "too deadly" fail when confronted
    with a young well-trained cage fighter who, unlike the "too deadly"
    practitioner, has experienced using his techniques in the adrenal state upon
    a resisting opponent.


    Before moving on in this discussion, we also need to note that this point
    can be overstated. We need to remember that we have seen reflexes honed in
    the adrenal state of combat sport, disastrously manifest in the adrenal
    state outside of the ritual space. This is sometimes forgotten.

    These disastrous manifestations may appear in unorganized (as versus ritual)
    male hierarchical fights: open guard makes much more sense when one is
    wearing a cup on the mat or in the cage than in the parking lot outside the
    night club where someone can vigorously step on your genitals. Releasing a
    triangle choke can get your femoral artery or genitals bitten. A takedown
    to side control for ground-and-pound may mean that your attacker can hold on
    to you long enough for his friends to arrive.

    Cage reflexes can also manifest in matters of judgment. For example there
    is the recent case of a kickboxing champion in CA whose car was sideswiped
    in front of his gym by a hit-and-run driver. Understandably angry at the
    misdeed and confident in his superiority, he ran out of his gym while in his
    MT shorts and chased down the fleeing car and caught up with it at a red
    light at the corner-- whereupon he was promptly shot and killed by the
    driver-- who was a thief who had stolen the car.

    Yet with all that said, it seems to me that we have still danced around the
    underlying question presented.

    In my humble opinion we of the Kali Silat persuasion need to have a facet to
    our Art that accepts that challenge of the cage while doing so in a way that
    furthers our purposes as warriors on a lifelong path as well as generating
    success in young male hierarchical fights. If the "delivery platform" we
    test and hone in the crucible of the cage is consistent with the idioms of
    movement, the tactics, the tools and the training for weaponry, then we are
    ahead of the game in a subtle and powerful way when it comes to "walking as
    a warrior for all our days."

    In Dog Brothers Martial Arts we call our sub-system for this "Kali Tudo T".


    The meaning of the name is a pun/rhyme on the Brazilian Portuguese term
    "Vale Tudo" which is usually translated as "Anything goes." If we look at
    the Latin roots of the Vale Tudo we may recognize that the English words of
    common ancestry are "Valid Total".

    In the Portuguese pronunciation of "Vale" the "e" is pronounced like "e" in
    "hey" whereas the in the American pronunciation it is pronounced like the
    "ee" in "seek".

    In the American pronunciation of "Kali", the "i" is also pronounced like the
    "ee" in "seek". Thus the rhyme is created between the American
    pronunciation of Vale Tudo and our sub-system "Kali Tudo T".

    Kali Tudo does not seek to replace what is in the cage right now. The
    fighters of today are outstanding and what they do is not to be dismissed
    lightly. I would note in passing though that much more than is commonly
    appreciated, much of what is in the cage right now has strong southeast
    Asian influence. Muay Thai is but a ring sport branch from the tree of the
    Thai military weaponry system of Krabi Krabong which comes to us in DBMA
    through the teachings of Guro Inosanto and Ajarn Arlan "Salty Dog" Sanford.

    The contribution of the Filipino Art of Panantukan to boxing is quite
    substantial. Indeed some believe that the shift from the palm up structure
    of the John L. Sullivan era to the palm down and evasive head movements of
    the modern era date to the interaction of the US soldiers and the Filipino
    people in the aftermath of our suppression of the Filipino independence
    movement after the Spanish-American War of 1898. This is a matter for
    another day. Those interested may peruse the many points of view in


    The principal systems upon which we draw are Inosanto Blend Kali and other
    FMA systems, Inosanto Maphilindo Silat and other Silats, Krabi Krabong,
    Burmese Bando, and Machado Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. We also draw upon what we
    see currently happening in the cage.

    Those familiar with this list of influences will note that with the
    exception of the Machado BJJ, all fall within the concept of the Majapahit
    Empire as described by Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje of Pekiti Tirsia and Guro

    What are the distinctive features of our approach?

    1) Even as we seek success in the Cage, we seek to minimize the
    installation of behaviors unsuitable for 360 degrees. We seek to maximize
    skills, tactics, tools and techniques suitable for the 360 degrees of the

    2) Following the Kali principal of zoning away from the rear hand, we
    pay particular attention to fighting in striking range to unmatched lead.
    (This can apply to clinch range as well.) Thus in order to be able to fight
    both right lead and left lead fighters, we pay considerable attention to
    bilateralism. This serves us well in 360 degree situations as well due to
    the battlefield tactical options thus enabled.

    3) This matter of bilateralism enables, indeed calls for, triangular
    footwork. When a fighter's skill set is indifferent to which side is
    forward he may freely shift between the two and this more than doubles the
    number of triangles possible (Triangles that maintain right lead, triangles
    that maintain left lead, and triangles that change leads) In our system
    these skills are developed during our approach to Siniwali (double stick)

    4) Striking skills ARE based upon our approach to weaponry-both
    siniwali and knife. Punching is only one of several striking modalities.
    Trapping most certainly is part of the mix. At the simplest level this
    means at two (and occasionally three) hits per shift of body weight in
    contrast to the one hit per shift of body weight of boxing. Furthermore,
    the nature of these strikes makes them more usable during clinch and ground
    game-often to surprisingly instantaneous results.

    5) The integration of these strikes with bilateral triangular footwork,
    developed during our approach to weaponry, yields an approach quite
    different to what is currently seen. Indeed, it can often look quite
    freaky. It is applied in principally in four ways ways. In addition to the
    already mentioned clinch and ground ranges, this approach has considerable
    merit in maintaining a fight in striking range. In the cage this can force
    an opponent to overextend himself in his efforts to close the distance. In
    the street, the art and science of keeping someone from entangling you can
    be a matter of life and death. The remaining category is in aggressive
    attacks that are both triangular and crashing at the same time. .

    6) It is precisely the present absence of triangular striking crash
    combinations in cagefighting today that explains the current difficulties in
    applying Kali Silat in the closer ranges. Conversely, its presence enables
    it. Kali Silat works.

    7) Young male hierarchical competition is a secondary
    motivation-although in my humble opinion we have plenty to offer a young MMA
    fighter, even one without Kali Silat skills. That said, our principal
    motivation is to install real time, real world skills in the adrenal state
    that will prepare us to "Walk as a Warrior for all our Days". Our subsystem
    of Kali Tudo T is but a step in that process.


    Kali Silat does require some training methods distinct from those of generic
    MMA. Currently many people deride this training as "dead patterns". This
    can be, and often is, true when the training stops at this point in the

    But just how does one train a Silat takedown that calls for ripping the
    medial miniscus of the knee safely upon a resisting opponent?

    IMHO part of the answer lays in what Guro Inosanto calls "cooperative
    quarter lever" technical training wherein the correct leverage is identified
    but applied only a little bit in order to facilitate the development of the
    understanding of the application AND DANGERS of Kali Silat. Part of the
    answer lies in BJJ/submission type training. And part of the answer lies in
    working with training partners who have done both quarter lever training
    BJJ/submission type training.

    In other words, both need to have an understanding of the risks/consequences
    of Silat techniques, a sense of what uncooperative people feel like, AND the
    ability to roll and/or strike at partial intensity without accelerating-- as
    the Machado Brothers say, "leaving one's ego at the door."

    Not only is this type of training highly effective in installing these
    dangerous skills for real time application, it also is relatively safe and
    quite fun.

    The same process described here for learning and training Silat leverage
    also applies to Kali Silat striking.

    This conception of training methodology is essential to manifest Kali Silat
    in the cage.


    Why have we not seen Kali and Silat in cagefighting/NHB/MMA?

    My answer is that we have not seen it yet, but we will-very soon. I will go
    further and predict that it will change the fighting-- as have other systems
    that have come before it.

    When I was a flag carrying fighter for the Dog Brothers twice a year at time
    and place certain I was available to all comers and put my ideas to the
    test. I did this until I was 48 years old. I am now 52 and am past the age
    when I can plausibly step into the Cage.

    Still I test myself and these ideas in sparring at Rico Chiapparelli's R1
    Gym, a world class MMA facility. I thank the fine fighters there for
    matching my diminished level of physicality so that I may continue to play
    and research. In addition to Rico, I thank Frank Trigg and Vladymir
    Matyushenko for their help.

    The three men I have worked most in our "Kali Tudo" are Chris Gizzi, DBMA
    Lakan Guro "Dog" Jeff Brown, and DBMA Guro Benjamin "Lonely Dog" Rittiner.
    Although in my opinion Chris (who you see in the photos in this article) has
    the physical gifts and the understanding of this material to take it all the
    way, Chris has decided to stay with his roots in football (he was a standout
    linebacker for the Green Bay Packers) and now trains pro football players
    and other elite athletes as well as mere mortals.

    Jeff, in addition to being a Lakan Guro in DBMA is also highly ranked in
    Silat under Herman Suwanda (with considerable training in Indonesia) and in
    Silat and Kali under Guro Inosanto, in Bando under GM Gyi, and others. He
    competes in Bando kickboxing and BJJ. I think Jeff expresses Kali Tudo very

    So too does DBMA Guro Lonely Dog. Rico has graciously complemented him on
    his quality participation in hard sparring at R1 using this material.

    These three men can be seen with me in our double disc DVD of "Kali Tudo T"
    which principally covers the portion of the subsystem dedicated to
    triangular crashing striking combinations.


    Allow me to flesh out my prediction that Kali Silat will alter the course of

    My thinking in this regard began with my experience in Dog Brothers Real
    Contact Stickfighting when I started BJJ with the Machado Brothers in the
    summer of 1990 and others in our tribe began shortly thereafter. At that
    time (Pre UFC) most of the martial arts world was blissfully unaware of the
    realities of grappling in the context of fighting, particularly so in the
    mostly FMA world of "Dog Brothers Real Contact Stickfighting". )

    In most of the Filipino Arts in America the received wisdom was, and is,
    that in the presence of the skilled use of weapons (either impact or
    cutting) grappling was pretty much a non-issue. Yet in the context of our
    fighting, we found otherwise. It is true that in many of our fights
    grappling range was created due to the increased survivability of head shots
    due to the fencing masks we use, but in my considered opinion we developed
    many fighters capable of consistently closing to grappling without taking
    any shots to the head and in the naivete of that era even moderate blue belt
    level skills produced results that were nearly magical. This is not
    surprising. Our opponents at that time were unfamiliar with the structure
    and its dynamics that we were using-just as I believe will happen as we
    begin to apply Kali Silat in the cage.

    This is not a rare dynamic. We have seen this pattern of new and unfamiliar
    structures changing the fighting repeatedly in the UFC too.

    In the beginning, those who entered the event prepared only by training and
    fighting focused on various forms of striking tested by ritual hierarchical
    contests with rules designed to isolate striking tended to do quite poorly.
    They were unfamiliar with the structures of grappling and their dynamics.

    Naturally in response to these experiences people did not stand still! Most
    everyone learned the basics of BJJ-and sought weak links in its structures
    to exploit with the strong links of other structures.

    For example some people looked to shootfighting and Sambo for their leg
    locks to counter BJJ's guard game and it was the turn of some BJJ fighters
    to be surprised as their knees, ankles, and feet were locked.

    Another example would be that in the beginning of the BJJ revolution against
    non-grappling strikers, BJJ fighters could create almost any sort of tangled
    mess to drag the fight to the ground and then win it there. But then
    wrestlers such as Greco-Roman man Randy Couture came on the scene-and the
    BJJ people lacked the skills to bring such men down. Often the result was
    that either or both looked to use Muay Thai type skills in the clinch-even
    though fighters trained exclusively in Muay Thai had not fared well

    Although those trained solely in BJJ often could not bring down the
    wrestlers, the wrestlers often could bring down the BJJ fighters into highly
    unfavorable positions for a "ground and pound" game that made good use of
    the grapplers' good base and balance.

    Trained by boxing trainer Eddie Stanky, Vitor Belfort brought in sport
    boxing to excellent effect. Even though most of his early wins were with
    boxing hands, I think it fair to say that his foundational skills in BJJ
    Vale Tudo and the attendant understanding of range gave him an understanding
    of how to use boxing in the context of cagefighting.

    Yet then we saw Randy Couture's "dirty boxing" (something the Filipino art
    of Panantukan has taken to a very high level) neutralize Belfort's sport

    In short, in the Cage we have seen new structures and dynamics come in with
    dominating results again and again. In a similar manner we have seen again
    and again that over time there will be responses that neutralize and/or
    counter these structures and dynamics. Advantage is transitory. Indeed as
    I write, the current UFC Champ Chuck Liddell won his belt with boxing
    strikes over superb grappler and great champion Randy Couture. How the
    wheel has turned from the early UFC!


    Closing on a more personal note, recently I showed a rough edit of our Kali
    Tudo DVDs to Top Dog for his thoughts on it. One of the things he said to
    me was "This almost feels like you are letting out a secret."

    I do confess to sharing his feeling in this regard.

    So why do I do it?

    I must confess what provoked me into starting my journey into KT was a bit
    like the plot line of many a Chop Socky movie: "You can't say that about
    our teacher!" The attacks by some on his teachings concerning sticks-"dead
    patterns!" they said, I felt were well answered by the performance of the
    Dog Brothers-no teacher has produced more, either directly or through his
    students such as me.

    "But what of the FMA claim that the unarmed motions are just like armed
    motions?" these people persisted.

    This question I acknowledged did not have the answer (YET!) that the
    weaponry question did.

    As I thought about it, it certainly made no sense to ask someone to use the
    weaponry motions while unarmed if they couldn't use the weaponry motions
    when armed! Thus, it seemed to me that I was, despite my modest physical
    gifts, due to my training in the Art and my 140 or so Dog Brothers
    stickfights, in a position to step forward to respond to this challenge.

    And so I have. It is the Dog Brother way, the Tao of the Dog if you will,
    to search for Truth.

    The Adventure continues, , , ,

    Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
    Guiding Force of the Dog Brothers
    Founder and Head Instructor of Dog Brothers Martial Arts.
    Personally, I'm excited as hell for the release of this material and plan on picking up a copy as soon as it's available.
    Last edited by poidog; 5/31/2005 6:39pm at .
    Kuha'o - Kela - Koa

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Long read; good for work.

    Disclaimer: I know very little about MA. Moving on.

    Some of the arguments presented could, I think, be very valid, but oftentimes they were presented without proper supporting evidence or, more often, explanation. I'd like to know more details. I also tend to dislike treatises like this because I think they try to fit MA and MMA into some kind of higher philosophical or sociological pyramid, for lack of a better term. I find that perplexing.

    Quick example:

    'Young male ritual hierarchical fighting' may sound academic, but it's a shaky ground to place people who train various forms of MA. I can't think of the last time I sparred or (will presumably) competed in a tourney for in order to establish myself socially or find a mate. In fact, I avoid talk of MA like the plague, esp. among women.

    I forgot my point, but overall I find this piece frustrating in that, although very long, contains not-so-much pertinent information, as far as I could gather with my massive headache.

  3. #3
    poidog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Sanctum Sanctorum, SoCal
    Quote Originally Posted by Camus
    Long read; good for work.

    Disclaimer: I know very little about MA. Moving on.

    Some of the arguments presented could, I think, be very valid, but oftentimes they were presented without proper supporting evidence or, more often, explanation. I'd like to know more details. I also tend to dislike treatises like this because I think they try to fit MA and MMA into some kind of higher philosophical or sociological pyramid, for lack of a better term. I find that perplexing.

    Quick example:

    'Young male ritual hierarchical fighting' may sound academic, but it's a shaky ground to place people who train various forms of MA. I can't think of the last time I sparred or (will presumably) competed in a tourney for in order to establish myself socially or find a mate. In fact, I avoid talk of MA like the plague, esp. among women.

    I forgot my point, but overall I find this piece frustrating in that, although very long, contains not-so-much pertinent information, as far as I could gather with my massive headache.
    I think your point of MA/MMA as a higher philosophical/sociological pyramid is valid, but my understanding of Marc's point is not that all MAs are about this, but that the DBMA are. Regarding the 'young male ritual heirachical fighting', I actually find it very dead on. I've simply heard it described more often in layman's terms as 'bragging rights'. Yeah, it may not be to secure a mate or establish your position in the heirarchy academically, but training in BJJ there certainly must be folks in your school who are known as the unofficial ass-kickers...they win every time they roll. I think that's basically what he was saying. Anyway, just my $.02, FWIW.
    Kuha'o - Kela - Koa

  4. #4
    Rubberduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to poidog again.
    :zicon_vik Thanks for posting this poidog.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Shi Ja Quan
    Excellent poidog, truly excellent.

  6. #6

    Join Date
    May 2004
    TKD, MT
    Now I REALLY want to see a Kali fighter in the cage. New fighting revolution what?
    Rad ki was made up by adolescents. I do not know who created trad ki but it was not made by adolescents. your an ass dude, Im not being a little bitch you are, your past the level of a bitch. Your beyond Bitch! If im easting my time with ki and psi, then your wasting time to prove frauds, and all **** like that! -theoutsider

    Kick boxing is ok, but don't expect do beat a man like Rickson Gracie with that. You need a real martial art. You need Xing Yi Quan. -Emptyflower

    The splits, how ever, have a few martial uses. Doing the splits for me, can put my fists in testical strike range.

    dont ignore the Art for the Martial or else your just kick boxing

    Yes i am serious, there are kicks that can block punches. we have them in Moo duk kwan.
    I want to learn how to use them in case my arm gets broken in a fight.
    what would you have me do? if my arm gets broke, not block punches? -sempi-stone

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    required field? wotsthat?
    AWESOME! I think it would be good for people to read that post in light of this article:

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Sioux Falls, SD
    MMA, JKD philosophy
    I just read this article in the magazine, and I happen to agree with Crafty Dog that it's about time that combat styles and MMA found common ground. I've studied "too deadly" styles and MMA, and competed. I think both have something to offer and that both have worthwhile strengths and sad weaknesses. The MMA competitor should have 360 awareness, weapons ability, dirtyfighting, defenses for same, and multiple opponent moves and tactics. The too deadly guys and gals need to spar, even if that means wearing equipment or pulling a move short. They need to experience resisting opponents, espicially ones who aggressively come after you, no matter what.

    I'm intrigued, and would like to order this Kali Tudo tape, I just don't know if I'll have the money.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Muay Thai, Wrestling
    Great read. I too want to get a hold of this DVD.

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    So Cal
    Liu Seong Kuntao, Baguazh
    Ype, good article, even if it was intrented to market the DVD. I plan on picking it up. DBMA videos always have something good in them.

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