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  1. #1

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    Does Weapon Based Martial Arts Practical Use

    What do people think of weapon based martial arts and their practical use? Like Hema, Escrima, Fencing, Kendo, Kenjitsu and others.
    Is there anything that can be used. Like sword could be swapped out for cane/walking stick or some kind of object abit like Escrima.

  2. #2
    Joe "I should not comment on Anthony Weiner" Biden staff
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    Relocated from the Armory; I think you'll find better answers, here.
    Being correct on the Internet is orders of magnitude easier than being correct in the Universe. Perhaps we should all concentrate more on the latter...

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    My personal opinion is that Escrima, if trained right, at the right place is one of the best stand up arts that you can learn. But there are some crappy escrima places, too. Here is how you will know, if you walk into the place and you see fencing masks hanging up and the only protective equipment is gloves, elbow pads and fencing masks, then you are in the right place. Of course, they need to spar with those and sticks. If so, good.

    Escrima can teach a wide range of weapons from knives to short sticks and long sticks. You learn about fighting with weapons, defending against them, and then the footwork used teaches movement in space and timing that is relevant to weapons and striking.

    Fencing is relevant to those competitions and then if you look at JKD you will see that Bruce Lee adapted the footwork from fencing to be used in his system. It's is also very similar footwork to what you do in XingYi.

    I haven't trained the others, but we have some high level Kendo and Hema people here who will chime in on those.

    All in all, I love stick fighting. It's lots of fun and teaches you a lot about the standup ranges of fighting.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

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    NeilG's Avatar
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    People often bring up the swapping a cane for a shinai argument or something, and I suppose you could do so but frankly the way we use shinai in kendo doesn't really lend itself to that. Plus, who wants to drag around a cane all the time? Also not sure about other areas but in Canada if you use something as a weapon, you can be charged with using a weapon no matter if that thing is normally a weapon or not. If it turns out that you carry it for the purposes of being a weapon, even worse.

    There's nothing in kendo that is directly translatable to practical use as most people think. There's a bunch of stuff that indirectly translates. We understand and manage distance better than most. We're trained to be pretty aggressive, by and large we're in reasonably good shape. We understand fighting in general, meaning we can process incoming attacks and possibly deal with them more than somebody with no training at all.

    Having said all that, if I am ever asked if kendo has any self-defence application, I just say no.

  5. #5

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    For those on this forum familiar with what my friends and I do:

    https://dogbrothers.com/dog-brothers-promo-clip/

    A one hour Nat Geo documentary:

    https://dogbrothers.com/national-geo...lub-no-limits/

    My thoughts on the Empty Hand expression of weaponry movements:

    https://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index...sg3954#msg3954

    From my most recent DVD on this:

    The lineage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwOt4e7aa8I&t=432s

    and one example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx71...ature=youtu.be

    ==================================

    And some more recent words:

    Rambling Rumination: “Kali Tudo and Going Nitrous Part One” ©
    By Punong Guro Crafty Dog Marc Denny


    It has been over fifteen years that I have been working on my “Kali Tudo” ® system. I first introduced it with this article in 2005:
    https://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index...sg3954#msg3954

    With my recently released “Kali Tudo 4” it feels like a good moment to summarize where the system is now. First, a review of some of the founding principles:

    ONE:
    The name “Kali Tudo” combines Brazil’s “Vale Tudo” (Valid Total, i.e. “anything goes) and Filipino “Kali”. Most Americans pronounce Kali and Vale with the same ending sound so “Kali Tudo” becomes something of a bad pun and as such appeals to my sense of humor.

    The greybeards among us will remember that VT was the original rules of the UFC. Head butts, groin punches, kicking and stomping a downed opponent, were all allowed. If I remember correctly from when I was a judge at UFC 10, only eye gouges, biting, fish hooking, toe and finger locks, and spinal blows were not allowed.

    Since then, as is appropriate for a combat sport that is also a business seeking mass market, the rules have evolved and the Vale Tudo rules have evolved into the rules of MMA today. One may quibble with certain of the rules (e.g. I would allow kidney kicks with the heel by a fighter having guard position and would disallow straight kicks to the knee) but on the whole this has been a good and suitable thing.

    The vigorous testing of the laboratory of the cage has allowed for extraordinary evolution in fighting skill and technique in the context of the fight paradigm of young, mostly male, ritual hierarchical combat.

    Anyone with this skill set is likely to be a formidable fighter in a real world “Die Less Often” context and often they will fare quite well!

    That said, people will do in the adrenal state what they have tested in the adrenal state and there are some mental chinks in the both the physical and mental aspects of the MMA paradigm that can lead to the catastrophic outcomes in the real world situations that in DBMA we call “DLO” (Die Less Often—the interface of gun, knife, and empty hand).

    Note well that the mental chinks in the armor not only includes things “not to do” in DLO situations, but also includes missing many “things you can do” in DLO that you cannot in MMA.

    Quick story: In the early days of the UFC the strikers, whose adrenally tested skills were only in the context of fighting other strikers, fared poorly against Gracie Jitsu—they had never experienced a skilled ground fighter. All Royce Gracie had to do was recognize and step through the portal to grappling tie ups and take downs and the strikers were left without their skills.

    Naturally the egos of those in striking arts were deeply threatened and various explanations were attempted. One of the most common was “You wouldn’t want to go to the ground in a street fight against more than one!”

    At the time (1993-95) Royce’s brother, Rorion Gracie, had a column in Black Belt magazine. The internet had yet to take off and Black Belt was THE dominant magazine for martial arts. In this column he addressed this objection to Gracie Jiu Jitsu by saying “You can’t fight just one man, why worry about more than one?”

    Very witty snark no doubt!

    But the logic is quite flawed in my opinion. The proper answer to a multi-player attack in the street is to go to weapons. Most commonly this will be a knife or a gun. (Where I live in California I am limited to a 3” folder)

    Once openly stated, the point is obvious but Rorian, like so many in martial arts, as fixated as he was on young male ritual hierarchical combat, simply missed it.

    Kali Tudo seeks to do unarmed fighting in Die Less Often (DLO) situations with the same movements whether the opponent or adversary is armed or unarmed. Kali Tudo seeks to do operate in DLO situations with the same idioms of movement whether we are armed or not. Having only one idiom of movement means in DLO situations we do not need to first discern whether the opponent is armed before choosing Empty Hand or Anti-Weaponry movements—an exceedingly important time saver in our response time!!! Similarly, this minimizes the necessary change should the opponent arm himself during the fight. Kali Tudo in the cage is where we test and adrenalize our skills.

    TWO

    The mission statement of Dog Brothers Martial Arts is to “Walk As Warriors For All Our Days”. We seek the joys and good health of good training to be ready for DLO situations where there are no age or weight divisions, where weapons may or may not be involved, and where numbers may be unequal. Such fights may start or finish in ways quite distinct from two men of equal size starting at a distance with a referee giving a go signal and declaring when the fight is over while enforcing the rules in the meantime.

    It is in these contexts we look to bring the Kali Tudo blend of Filipino Kali and Vale Tudo to bear—and use the laboratory of MMA to test ourselves and our ideas in the adrenal state with the real contact and aerobic challenge of a contesting opponent that the MMA experience provides.

    For those for whom the actual experience of getting in the cage is too much (and that is most of us!), there is real value is seeing it manifested by others and being informed by it in their own testing at the level suitable for each of them.

    Specifically, what does Kali Tudo mean in MMA application?

    Kali promises that the movements of the empty hand are, with minor modifications, just like those of the weapons. Most people regard this as nonsense, but I do not. Most people pose the logical and fair question “If that were so, why don’t we see it in the cage?”

    The short answer is that the self-fulfilling nature of the logic “If this idea had merit, we would already see it” combines with the fact that that the most people with Kali skills have not tested them in the adrenal state such as can be found in a “Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack”® and most of those who have done so have done so mostly single stick and so the logic becomes circular. We have not seen it because we have not seen it!

    Because I tested my Kali skills as Crafty Dog of the Dog Brothers and did my best while fighting with two sticks, it occurred to me to go where I had not seen anyone else go—to apply Kali in the MMA context.

    As related elsewhere, I began my research in this in my early 50s in the 2000s at the RAW Gym in El Segundo, California where I got to interact with and pick the brains of the some of the top fighters on the planet at that time. At the time we were holding our Gatherings at the RAW Gym, so everyone there understood what I was coming from and what I was trying to do. Thanks to their testing me gently in my explorations I am here to share what I have learned there and since then.

    THREE

    So, specifically what distinguishes KT from MMA?

    1) First be clear that KT does not look to replace MMA with something completely distinct. You WILL want to have the skill sets of modern MMA. (Muay Thai, boxing, Greco Roman clinch, wrestling, BJJ, etc) You may not need to go beyond the basics, but you should have at least enough to not make basic errors and enough to take advantage of common errors.

    That said, you also will need to understand that certain aspects of MMA are not relevant to KT. Simple examples: because we prepare for DLO, where more than one opponent adversary may be part of the equation and where weapons may be in play or come into play after the fight begins, we place much more emphasis on throw downs than take downs; if we are on the ground we emphasize positions where we cannot be entangled; we emphasize positions where we can monitor the hands and check for hidden weapons.

    2) One of the biggest and most readily obvious differences is that KT offers striking distinct from boxing type strikes. If we define boxing strikes from a Kali point of view, we can say that are all of them are forehanded thrusts, either straight or curved and that every boxing strike requires a shift in body weight. John Boyd of OODA loop fame spoke of the importance in “changes in height, speed, and direction.” In that Kali strikes also include backhands this means that two (and sometimes three!) strikes can be delivered with one shift of body weight. Let us call this "double striking". Double striking means that as far as our opponent/adversary/adversary’s neurological system is concerned, two times as many strikes are coming in in the same amount of time—i.e. we have doubled our speed without moving any faster and thus can take advantage of Boydian tactics! This is my idea of a very big deal!

    There is much more (different ways of elbowing, using the forearms, and other things too) but this should give an opening idea that suffices for the purposes of this piece.

    3) In addition to the footwork for multiple player and other DLO situations, KT footwork includes many things that most MMA footwork does not. In addition to the same hand and foot footwork of modern boxing (e.g. the front foot takes a short step with the jab) we can also step through with the opposite foot— in DBMA what we call “the Zirconia”. This is done by some in MMA, but I believe KT has a science of this that can be taught in a way that the fighter will recognize opportunities that he might very well otherwise miss.

    4) When double striking and opposite hand and foot footwork are done together continuously powerful blitzkrieg pressure is created. Also, bringing to bear an influence from Krabi Krabong, KT also steps through sometimes with the same hand and foot. Having the skill of these three footwork modalities and the skill of transitioning between them becomes an additional way of changing the ground speed of our footwork (another example of Boydian change in speed) without having to change the speed of our movement—a subtle and powerful point!

    These variables are the focus of our new “Kali Tudo 4” release.

    It has been several years since the release of KT-3 and I like to think that in KT 4 we are able to bring together the various strands of KT 1-3 and really move things forward. In this effort I am exceedingly well represented in this effort by DBMA Guro Splinter Dog Antone Haley and DBMA Guro Beowulf Mark Houston. Their resumes are below.

    The Adventure continues!
    Punong Guro Crafty Dog Marc Denny
    ================================================== ==


    Education
    • University of California, Davis: BA in Philosophy (High Honors) andPsychology (Honors), June 2009.
    • Junior Research Assistant with the UCD Department of Neurological Surgery(2008-2010)

    Current Employment
    • San Francisco Police Department • 257th Recruit Class (Nov. 2017)
    • FTO in the Bayview District
    • Probation in the Tenderloin District • Market Street Foot-Beat
    • Captain’s Problem Solving Unit
    • Participated in multiple buy-bust operations and search warrant services


    • Current Assignment: HSOC Unit

    Miscellaneous: first place in the men's elite division at the 2019 tactical games event held in Georgia 6/22-23/19

    Law Enforcement Specific Training
    • Gracie Survival Tactics Instructor (Gracie HQ)
    • Terrorism Liaison Officer-C (NCRIC)
    • Criminal/Terrorism Interdiction Workshop (Desert Snow)
    • Interview and Interrogation Course (BATI)
    • Krav Maga Law Enforcement Instructor (USKMA)
    • Law Enforcement Force-Continuum Instructor (PFS)
    • RFLX Combat Wrestling Tactical Instructor (RFLX)
    • Accurint/LexisNexisWorkshop

    Martial Arts Instructor Training
    • Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Black Belt (Ralph Gracie->Mikyo Riggs)
    • Full Dog Brother (Splinter Dog)
    • Dog Brothers Martial Arts Instructor (Guro)
    • Muay Thai Instructor (Kru TyElliot)
    • Wing Chun Kung Fu Instructor (Chris Chan)


    • Jeet Kune Do Instructor (Paul Vunak)
    • Libre Fighting Systems Trainer (Scott Barbb)
    • Edged Weapons Instructor (Paul Vunak)
    • RFLX Combat Wrestling Instructor (RFLX)
    • MMA Strength and Conditioning Coach (Kevin Kerns)

    Weapons Instructor Training
    • Tactical Pistol and Rifle Instructor Course (CSAT/Paul Howe)
    • Shotgun Instructor Course (Sig Sauer Academy)
    • Combat Pistol Instructor Course (Suarez International)
    • TAPS Pistol and Rifle Instructor Course (Pat McNamara)
    • Pistol and Rifle Instructor Course (TRC)
    • Armed Civilian Tactics Instructor Course (Tactical Krav Maga)
    • NRA Instructor (MultipleDisciplines)
    • NRA Range SafetyOfficer

    Tactics Training
    • Low Light Operator Instructor Course (SurefireAcademy)
    • Basic SWAT school (CSAT/Paul Howe)
    • Advanced SWAT School (CSAT/Paul Howe)
    • Shoot House Instructor Course (TRC)
    • CQB/Tactics Instructor Course (DAG/TFTT)
    • Active Shooter Instructor Course (FLETC)
    • Active Shooter Instructor Course-Solo Officer Response (Alerrt)
    • Tactical Night Vision Instructor Course (DARC)

    Specialty Training
    • Wilderness survival
    • Human tracking
    • Surveillance
    • Environmental manipulation

    Medical Training
    • Basic Tactical Medical Instructor (FLETC)
    • Tactical Combat Casualty Care
    • First Responder
    • First Aid/CPR for Adults andChildren










    Guro / Sifu Mark “Beowulf” Houston

    Background
    • Training and teaching White Tiger Kenpo since 1998
    • Co-Founder of THE TRAINING MAT (2007)
    • Became Full Dog Brother and given name “Beowulf” (2010)
    • Received Green Arm Band in Muay Thai (2010)
    • Achieved Black Belt in White Tiger Kenpo (2012)
    • Received 3rd Degree in White Tiger Kenpo (2017)
    • Given the title of “Guro” in DBMA (Dog Brothers Martial Arts) by Punong Guro Marc “Crafty Dog” Denny (2013)
    • Board of Directors: Dog Brothers Martial Arts Instructor Association, Curriculum Director (2014)

    Fights / Competitions
    • Pro MMA record: 3-0
    • International Chinese Koushu Championships, San Francisco (2001)
    • Bok Fu Do Invitational, San Francisco (2002)
    • Long Beach International, Kenpo forms and self-defense techniques (2004)
    • The Desert Rat, Kenpo (2004)
    • Amateur kickboxing, Team Quest, Murrieta (Record: 4-0) (2007)
    • King of Catch (2007)
    • Turkey Tapout, Upland (2008)
    • Grappling X, Pancration at the Armory, San Bernardino (2009)
    • Grappling X, Long Beach (2009, 2012)
    • Soboba MMA (2015)
    • Battle of the Badges, Kickboxing (2016)
    • Regular participant at Dog Brothers Gatherings. Averaging 8 to 10 full contact stick fights a year since 2006

    Teachers / Coaches
    • Long time private student of Punong Guro Marc “Crafty Dog” Denny: Guiding Force of the Dog Brothers and Head Instructor of DBMA (Dog Brothers Martial Arts), in DBMA
    • Sifu Lester Griffin, original Dog Brother and UFC judge, in Stick Fighting
    • “Smoken” Joe Sarkissian, 3 time title holder, in kickboxing
    • Lorenzo Rodriguez, 1970s kickboxing champ, in kickboxing
    • Bart Vale, founder of Shootfighting and 10th Degree Black Belt in Kenpo, in Shootfighting
    Modify message
    Last edited by Crafty Dog; 11/26/2019 9:37pm at .

  6. #6

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    PS: I should mention that Kali Tudo's ultimate criterion is what we call "Die Less Often: The interface of gun, knife, and empty hand" see e.g.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvF_iDurNEk

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crafty Dog View Post
    PS: I should mention that Kali Tudo's ultimate criterion is what we call "Die Less Often: The interface of gun, knife, and empty hand" see e.g.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvF_iDurNEk
    An excellent series that I recommend.

    We train through it a few times a year.

    It should be more.

  8. #8

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    I came back to mention that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT49Ne_x6bY&t=122s also has some good footage to show the segue into using the weaponry movements empty hand.

    Tail wags for the kind words Dr. Gonzo. Do you have all five?

    I should mention that Frankie McRae, general tip of the spear badass who is featured in DLO 4 and DLO 5 has endorsed my relatively new gun-knife integration material. It looks more likely than not that I will be moving to the Fort Bragg NC area this coming year to go into business with Frankie and Sean O-Dowd.

    Also perhaps of interest is that Lloyd de Jongh of Piper-Tripwire of South Africa (now living in Warsaw, Poland) and I have developed the Rapid Transients Weaponcraft (RTW for short) knife system. RTW is principally and ice pick grip knife system designed to solve the following problems:

    1) Adversary is younger, bigger, stronger, meaner, and crazier than we are. Our pocket folder lacks immediate stopping power absent unusually precise targeting and his attitude is to knock us the fk out and do his will and bind his wounds later;

    2) What we call in DBMA "a cranky crowd of scurrilous scum"-- not determined, but they will take cheap shot opportunities if they can;

    3) A pack of jackals: A team working with purpose to bring us down.

  9. #9
    Permalost's Avatar
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    Diesel and Guro Crafty pretty much nailed it. One thing to really understand if you're going to train and carry weapons is the local laws, regarding what you can legally carry and what the law says about how you should handle yourself before, during and after using a weapon. Firearm and pepper spray are worth considering but are often overlooked by martial arts types. I have found Filipino martial arts to be the best template of movement for modern non-firearm weapon work, and the Dog Brothers material listed above to be very good and realistic. There are Dog Brothers affiliates all over, you may want to look into if there is a training group nearby.

    Some weapons I have available depending on circumstances:
    -a sturdy, sharp folding knife, almost always
    -a large fixed blade when I'm camping or hiking
    -a staff when camping or hiking
    -a large Maglight in my glove box
    -a toolbox full of sheet metal tools for work in the trunk (sheet metal hammer, duct knife etc)
    -a baseball bat behind the front door
    -bowie knife next to my bed
    Last edited by Permalost; 11/27/2019 12:59am at .

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crafty Dog View Post
    I came back to mention that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT49Ne_x6bY&t=122s also has some good footage to show the segue into using the weaponry movements empty hand.

    Tail wags for the kind words Dr. Gonzo. Do you have all five?

    I should mention that Frankie McRae, general tip of the spear badass who is featured in DLO 4 and DLO 5 has endorsed my relatively new gun-knife integration material. It looks more likely than not that I will be moving to the Fort Bragg NC area this coming year to go into business with Frankie and Sean O-Dowd.

    Also perhaps of interest is that Lloyd de Jongh of Piper-Tripwire of South Africa (now living in Warsaw, Poland) and I have developed the Rapid Transients Weaponcraft (RTW for short) knife system. RTW is principally and ice pick grip knife system designed to solve the following problems:

    1) Adversary is younger, bigger, stronger, meaner, and crazier than we are. Our pocket folder lacks immediate stopping power absent unusually precise targeting and his attitude is to knock us the fk out and do his will and bind his wounds later;

    2) What we call in DBMA "a cranky crowd of scurrilous scum"-- not determined, but they will take cheap shot opportunities if they can;

    3) A pack of jackals: A team working with purpose to bring us down.
    No.

    I only have the first three.

    I will of course buy the remaining two.

    Because I am a martial arts whore addict, and that is what I must do.

    Damn it.

    Side note - I am of course excited to watch them and train through them with my group.

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