1. #1
    lt_flippy's Avatar
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    Getting acupuncture for a workplace injury has converted me, where can I learn more

    Hello Bullshido, it's been a while and now I have old man problems, mainly computer shoulder and Indian hips (lopsided hip from sitting Indian-style). Where do I find the real stuff on QiGong and traditional Chinese medicine theory? Should I just learn sanchin form and do it everyday?

    What do you guys think of these experts:
    - Lee Holden
    - Jwing-Ming Yang (YMAA guy)
    - Diamond Dallas Page (DDP Yoga)

    Are there better people than this to get videos from?

    I've been sedentary for over a year and I've been getting bad shoulder and neck pain at work, and I ended up filing a workplace injury report when I lost range of motion in my shoulder while using my mouse.

    Acupuncture turned out to be an option covered by the workplace injury insurance, so I picked it cause needles are cool. I thought the needles just released muscle tension and it would be fixed, but I still have to do stretches or massage after to get the full benefit. That got me started on QiGong.

    I've been doing these Lee Holden QiGong videos I downloaded and eventually something hurts and I can't do a full exercise, so now when I go to the acupuncture guy and show him the stretch I can't do and he uses needles to fix it.

    I can also kind of fix some stuff with rubbing it out or pinching around the area. I can do it a bit on other people (it sounds weird, but I feel like I learned it from being a wrist-control grappler), but I can't fix the muscles on my back cause I use them to reach back there. What kind of stretches did they do in ancient China for this? Is there a device superior to my knockoff hitachi massager?

    Since I found out a lot of the internal martial arts are for not hurting all the time as an old man, I'm a lot more open-minded. Don't be afraid to throw heavy Taoist or Buddhist stuff at me (I even made it through a ten day silent retreat).

  2. #2
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    Ming Loyalist's Avatar
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    my experience with acupuncture is that it's all about the practitioner. the guy i used to go to is able to do a lot of good for me, but he retired and only teaches now, so i go to one of his students, but just like with martial arts, some of the students can do "it" and some can't.

    if you're in NYC i can tell you some people to check out, but otherwise it's hard to give any decent advice.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj

  3. #3
    Permalost's Avatar
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    I've read some Yang Jwing Ming books on kung fu and thought they were decent. Pretty in depth and well thought out and sourced. I have no idea about how his acupuncture stuff is.

    A friend of mine recently became a certified acupuncturist. I have not had any treatment from her, but I ask her questions about Chinese medicine (for example, about deer antler as an athletic supplement/PED) and I find her answers very reasonable and not magical thinking. Anyway, she was telling me that part of her coursework was learning enough Western medicine to know when to direct someone towards conventional Western medicine when its a superior option. She said the willingness to make such suggestions was one of the hallmarks of a good acupuncturist/Chinese medicine practitioner.

  4. #4
    Dung Beatles's Avatar
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    It's pseudoscience where a guy sticks needles into parts of your body based on a map of arbitrary magical energy markers supposedly in the body. It is pure placebo and if you think it cured your problem, it was probably cured by you just taking it easy for awhile.

    Seriously, it's grade-A bullshit.
    "Pave the way for the little guy, Caligula!" Harry Solomon, September 28, 1999

  5. #5
    lt_flippy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dung Beatles View Post
    It's pseudoscience where a guy sticks needles into parts of your body based on a map of arbitrary magical energy markers supposedly in the body. It is pure placebo and if you think it cured your problem, it was probably cured by you just taking it easy for awhile.

    Seriously, it's grade-A bullshit.
    As far as muscles go... it's not about energy markers as much as lines of tension (although, kinetic energy is energy). You can literally feel what they call different "meridians" when you do certain stretches and stretch each finger individually.

    Your parasympathetic nervous system does not just control unconscious breathing and your heart, that's why people subconsciously take up some postures without thinking about it. Sometimes you end up flexing some muscle that fucks up a whole chain of muscles by either habit or subconscious whatever. The needle basically holds a line of tension in place, so you have to redistribute the tension elsewhere when you "relax".

    I could probably do what the needles do mentally, maybe, over the course of several hours. But that takes a kind of body mindfulness and control of habit that's way less practical to acquire than paying a dude to stick needles in you.

    Even if there is religious belief associated, it's really old (Buddhism and Taoism ran Chinese science), their map of the body is the result of experimentation. Think of all the places you shouldn't put needles. A lot of people had to get fucked up for them to find out the safe places you can stick needles. Just like how Western medicine got advanced by taking the experimentation data from Nazi concentration camps, except a thousand years ago so it's not as bad.

  6. #6
    W. Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dung Beatles View Post
    It's pseudoscience where a guy sticks needles into parts of your body based on a map of arbitrary magical energy markers supposedly in the body. It is pure placebo and if you think it cured your problem, it was probably cured by you just taking it easy for awhile.

    Seriously, it's grade-A bullshit.
    Not according to science, and billions of people.
    '“I am no advocate of passivity,” Coffin Mott said in an 1860 speech. “Quakerism, as I understand it, does not mean quietism. The early Friends were agitators; disturbers of the peace; and were more obnoxious in their day to charges, which are now so freely made, than we are.”'

  7. #7

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    The placebo effect plays a role in almost all pain management.

    Both massage therapy and acupuncture often produce some subjectively reported pain relief whether the "treatments" follow actual acupuncture or massage therapy protocols, or sham treatments (treatments where needles are put in arbitrary positions, or "untrained" massage is done).

    Many studies report that sham treatments and actual treatments regarding acupuncture or massage therapy produce the same results.

    A minority of studies do show a small statistical difference between sham treatments and real treatments of acupuncture and massage therapy.

    However, when sham treatments are applied in many of the studies, the people selected to apply the sham treatments not only lack training acupuncture or massage therapy,

    they also lack the thousands of hours and experience massage therapists and acupuncture therapists have in socially interacting with their clients and creating relaxing ambiances.

    It is noteworthy that real hypnosis therapy versus sham hypnosis therapy also both often produce subjective reports of pain relief.

    So, one of the variables not controlled for in the sham versus real acupuncture studies is whether or not the people providing the sham treatments run through the same level of social patter and environmental ambiance while interacting with the recipients.

    Put another way, the only way to control for sham treatment efficacy versus real treatment efficacy in those studies would be to blindfold the patients and have them wear noise canceling headphones and to forbid the people applying either the sham treatments or real treatments from speaking, so as to rule out the power of verbal suggestion or environmental suggestion as additional placebo.

    At the end of the day, if pain relief is achieved, and the cost is tolerable, what does it matter if it is placebo or not.

    A significant number of people with chronic pain have reported pain relief from watching porn, or listening to music, or through guided relaxation exercises.

    Some people with severe pain probably need opioid treatments to manage their pain, which makes the current "opioid crisis" and additional hoops a real witch hunt tragedy for those patients.

    Regarding pain management therapies involving compassionate touch, it is also interesting to consider that humans are primates.

    Primates in the wild groom each other constantly.

    Most humans go throughout most of their day without constant social touching from other primates, or surrogates.

    Having an acupuncture or massage therapist provide surrogates for such "grooming",

    or the mutual affection between pet owners and pets, where the pets shows frequent physical affection or the pet owner provides physical affection,

    may all serve a useful function regarding the brain's release of useful pain management chemicals, and more esoterically, the mind's perception of pain or well being.

    Nothing I say here is medical advice.

    Enjoy your acupuncture or porn or adopt a dog, or whatever gets you through your day.

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