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  1. #1
    Diesel_tke's Avatar
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    New Yang Style form

    So this is a new form from the Yang style.



    I think for the most part it’s not new stuff, however I’ve never seen cloud hands done like that. I said in an earlier thread that no one wants to talk about cloud hands. Well, this is a test. Has anyone seen cloud hands done like this? What do you think the benefit of it is?

    Personally, I’ve always done it the traditional Yang way, with side steps while doing it. It’s got good meditative principles in it that I like. And depending on how you do it, it has good ground path connection, good rotation, and has a few good martial applications. But this new way doesn’t seem to have most of those benefits. Opinions?
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    The description says that this form was created for competitions and performances, so there's some possibility that it was made to look pleasing to the untrained eye rather than for the benefits you mentioned.

  3. #3

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    It looks nice enough but, Agreed, the Stepping during Cloud Hands is puzzling. I'd like to see the Martial Application of this interpretation to better understand why he moves as he does. That's probably true for other elements but hey, ho. The Lotus Kick is oddly effected. The Needle At Sea Bottom is different. The move leading to Apparent Close Up has a problem with his Right Foot, which is poorly positioned. I was taught that it aligned with the Body, which the Master above does not. The way he performs it seems to compromise the integrity of his Position/Stance owing to his Foot being out of alignment. I'm also a bit curious about the 'loading' on his Legs, which, again looks a bit odd. Anyway...

    May be he's more focused on the Meditative aspect....

    I'd be curious to know the views of my old Tai Chi instructor, Keith Alker.
    Last edited by Eddie Hardon; 1/01/2019 12:46pm at . Reason: typos

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    Diesel_tke's Avatar
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    I guess it is possible that this teacher is just trying to find another niche in a swamped Tai Chi gene pool. :D Or some relevance to teach something a little different from everyone else. But yes, this form seems to go contrary to some general principles of Tai Chi.

    I always thought that, as long as the form doesn't violate the principles of Tai Chi, it doesn't matter what order the forms come in as long as the basic principles are still applied.
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    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

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  5. #5

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    Yes, agreed and understood. My tai chi instructor and also my Trad JJ instructor both spoke of adjustments to suit the individual were fine if consistent with the principle of the technique.

    The thing is that the Chinese tend to control the Martial Arts and like conformity. So much so, that the 24 Step Style was agreed on by a committee headed by Li De Yin. My old Tai Chi instructor was fairly dismissive of Tai Chi without awareness of the Martial Application; such practitioners were just 'dancing'. I suppose such Instructors only have a quarter of the awareness that normally marries with Application, Chi Gang, Weapons. The Tai Chi Union of GB categorises such as Cat A (full knowledge) and Cat B (Knowledge of Form only). they also have categories for those certified by 3rd Parties (which means Instruction from Abroad) and finally a category of those known and recognised for their consistent expertise of 20 years or more standing.

    We'll learn more if it becomes popular.

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    The Yang Family tradition isn't like the Chen family tradition or the Sun Style lineage. There's a Chen Village you can visit with unbroken lineage, where you can find Chen Masters who have been passed down the real Chen Style for generations through blood lineage, throwing each other around like Sumo wrestlers, very serious about sparring and applications.

    From what I have heard there isn't an unbroken Yang lineage, the current Yang Family generation interested in Tai Chi learned the Yang Style from non-Yang family members... If the Yang Family suddenly decides they need to add another form then:
    1) They didn't learn from their ancestors mistake of making incredibly long and time consuming forms.
    2) WHO CARES? (Hint: NOT ME.)

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    I said in an earlier thread that no one wants to talk about cloud hands. Well, this is a test.
    Just for the record, I would like nothing more than to discuss cloud hands at length: https://www.bullshido.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=128521

    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    I’ve always done it the traditional Yang way, with side steps while doing it... has a few good martial applications. But this new way doesn’t seem to have... those benefits.
    I very strongly question the Yang family's authority on Yang Style Tai Chi. There are people with direct Yang lineage, such as people in the USA tracing their lineage through Chen Man-ching and Hu Yuen Chow. Just because the Yang family is genetic descendants of the founder of Yang style doesn't mean they know what they are talking about.

    And IMHO this form and their treatment of cloud hands proves they don't know what they are talking about. (See: https://www.bullshido.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=128521 )

    The over all posture looks far more Wu style to me than Yang style, with the spine being aligned with the angle of the rear leg rather than the spine being perpendicular to the ground. If the Yang family is preferring Wu style for some reason, I would like to hear that reason, but I think they are just ineptly practicing Yang style here.
    Last edited by BFGalbraith; 2/03/2019 5:01pm at .

  8. #8

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    There is a similar "four corner cloud hands" drill 四隅雲手 in Wu style. Interesting to see it in a hand form. These shorter "essential" forms are something the Chinese government is requesting from the different families for demo and competition. Government bureaucrats don't want to sit through a 25 minute traditional form!

  9. #9
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    The trouble with watching any Taijiquan form and separating out the QUAN part is what his particular training mode is missing in terms of its Aliveness factor.

    This isn't a problem with Taiji forms at all, but more like the fact that Matt's model is incomplete and imprecise (as in judging the Aliveness of an art by its forms alone is a mistake). Qualitatively, there are other elements cherished by the Chinese arts (e.g. mind-body awareness).

    All taiji forms are dead training. Obviously all three elements are missing. Movement, timing, and energy. Technically a 4th element (a partner) is also missing.

    This is why the martial applications aren't clear. It's too slow, there's no partner. Even pumping up the tempo won't solve this problem. You can only imagine what movement and timing (resistance) might look like with a second person.

    Some CMA forms are 2-person for this exact reason, they add a partner and you need to drill the sequence in unison. Still choreographed but like learning the Tango, it adds some basic level of movement , timing, and energy (not to mention things like distance).
    '“I am no advocate of passivity,” Coffin Mott said in an 1860 speech. “Quakerism, as I understand it, does not mean quietism. The early Friends were agitators; disturbers of the peace; and were more obnoxious in their day to charges, which are now so freely made, than we are.”'

  10. #10
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    A Yang stylist's opinion: I learned cloud hands as an arm drag to counter a single handed push on the same side. The high hand neutralizes and redirects the push, as the low hand scoops under the tricep for the arm drag. In moving step, this can be used to set up a carry tiger throw, or getting a carry tiger position to walk the opponent out, or simply to push the person out from the side.

    If that's the application, I can see stepping in other ways besides straight to the side, because an arm drag can be finished in different ways.

    As far as taking the moves and rearranging their sequence around, I don't really see it as detrimental or beneficial. How you do the moves is a lot more important than the order of things.

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