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  1. #1
    Wounded Ronin's Avatar
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    Thinking aloud here: why restrict full auto fire mode?

    I've barely ever had occasion to operate a firearm in full auto mode, but I don't see any rational reason why this fire mode should be generally restricted in the United States. It is my understanding that the restriction on full auto fire mode was directly related to the St. Valentine's Day Massacre in Chicago and was a knee jerk reaction to a bunch of mobsters being executed by a couple of other mobsters who happened to be using Thompson submachineguns. However the mobsters who were killed weren't in a firefight, but rather were in position to be executed, so the type of weapon used and the firemode probably didn't make a critical difference in that case.


    Today, it seems like the political push for gun control is primarily driven by the Democratic party as a way to motivate their base and the issue is almost always framed in the context of mass shootings which are statistically rare but which are given disproportionate coverage in the news media. The idea being put forth seems to be that if only there were XYZ additional restrictions or paperwork hoops to jump through on firearms, it wouldn't be possible to massacre a bunch of individuals in an enclosed indoor location who don't have the means to fight back. The counter argument never made by anybody would be that in those circumstances even an antique Winchester repeating rifle with blackpowder cartridges would be sufficient to affect a massacre. There's no strong evidence that the restrictions called for would reduce the mortality or morbidity associated with such events once they are already underway.


    This line of thinking leads me to consider that there's probably no rational reason to restrict civilian access to full auto capable weapons at all, as there's no strong evidence that it is a factor one way or the other in these types of high profile mass shootings.

    Speculating and just thinking aloud here, it might even make mass shooters less effective:

    1.) Much has been made of the idea that the reload is some kind of supremely challenging and arduous task that then lets unarmed people tackle and defeat someone who is equipped with a military pattern rifle. Of course, this idea is false, because unless you have debilitating arthritis or something, a reload can be done in literally two seconds. Plus, this view fails to take into account that a person can train in hand to hand combat in order to be less vulnerable to being incapacitated by an unarmed attacker, or that they might plan ahead and carry a sidearm, which itself doesn't necessarily need to be a firearm, that could be used if their longarm ceases to be functional for some reason.

    That being said, a long time talking point of the gun control movement has been that magazine sizes should be limited in order to create more reloads. However, if you think about it, if you really want to make someone have to reload a lot, give them full auto fire mode. It doesn't matter if their magazine is ten rounds or thirty rounds, if they use full auto fire in an undisciplined manner, they will empty their magazines in seconds. According to Google, the cyclic rate of fire on a M4 carbine is 700-970 rounds per minute. That's at least 11 rounds per second, so a standard magazine will be empty in less than 3 seconds if someone just holds down the trigger on a full auto M4.

    Of course if someone just took their carbine and held down the trigger till the weapon is empty, they probably have terrible accuracy. So full auto would reduce accuracy and create the much-vaunted need to reload in less than 3 seconds.

    2.) Full auto would introduce overheating. Based on reading and research, I learned that when AR class rifles are continually used in full auto mode in desperation situations such as ambushes, they begin to overheat. See: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...4-controversy/

    (3) BURST BARRELS RESULT WHEN THE WEAPONS ARE FIRED UNDER VERY EXTREME FIRING SCHEDULES AND THE BARREL TEMPERATURE EXCEEDS 1360 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT. WHEN THE BARREL REACHES THESE EXTREME TEMPERATURES, THE BARREL STEEL WEAKENS TO THE POINT THAT THE HIGH PRESSURE GASES BURST THROUGH THE SIDE OF THE BARREL APPROXIMATELY 4 INCHES IN FRONT OF THE CHAMBER. THIS CONDITION CAN RESULT IN SERIOUS INJURY.
    (B) FIRING 140 ROUNDS, RAPIDLY AND CONTINUOUSLY, WILL RAISE THE TEMPERATURE OF THE BARREL TO THE COOK-OFF POINT. AT THIS TEMPERATURE, ANY LIVE ROUND REMAINING IN THE CHAMBER FOR ANY REASON MAY COOK-OFF (DETONATE) IN AS SHORT A PERIOD AS 10 SECONDS.
    (D) SUSTAINED RATE OF FIRE FOR THE M16 SERIES RIFLES AND M4 SERIES CARBINES IS 12-15 ROUNDS PER MINUTE. THIS IS THE ACTUAL RATE OF FIRE THAT A WEAPON CAN CONTINUE TO BE FIRED FOR AN Indefinite LENGTH OF TIME WITHOUT SERIOUS OVERHEATING.
    My weapon was overheating. I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldnít charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down.
    So, it would seem to me, that semi auto only weapons are actually forcing untrained and undisciplined people into behaving like more disciplined marksmen. If you gave them full auto mode they would quickly take themselves out of the fight by overheating their weapon, which is much more of a debilitating state than simply needing to do a magazine change. And you know that in full auto mode most of their rounds would be flying wild, compared to if you were forcing them to pull the trigger for each round.

    If the guy makes his M4 blow up on him, he's taking himself out of the fight, no outside intervention needed.




    Thoughts on this? Any way to realistically get people to think this way?
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  2. #2
    Bneterasedmynam's Avatar
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    Dude please, the left **** themselves because plastic guns are scary. Full auto would never even make it to discussion let alone a vote in Congress.

  3. #3

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    It's mainly because of the movie Scarface.

    No, not the Al Pacino one. The 1932 one. A fictionalized Al Capone openly gloats about the Tommy gun as a perfect gangster weapon. There's even a preachy scene where responsible members of the community are instructed that submachine guns are a plague and should be outlawed.

    The first major restrictions on their purchase came two years later.

  4. #4
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    Raycetpfl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    Dude please, the left **** themselves because plastic guns are scary. Full auto would never even make it to discussion let alone a vote in Congress.
    Full auto isnt worth fighting for. A slicked up trigger is better and already legal.
    The Caucasian always has stronger strength and when comes to grappling, Caucasians mostly win easily. I do know grappling and if I used it on Asians my size, it works. - Kung Fu dude that got waxed at OneFc try out.

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    Wounded Ronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    Full auto isnt worth fighting for. A slicked up trigger is better and already legal.
    The real fascination for me is how did so many people arrive at the conclusion that full auto is meaningful and helpful for a lone individual? How is this underlying assumption so axiomatic?
    Lone Wolf McQuade Final Fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmrDe_mYUXg

  6. #6
    submessenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
    The real fascination for me is how did so many people arrive at the conclusion that full auto is meaningful...
    Easy: "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
    ... and helpful for a lone individual?
    Years of bad movies, and Las Vegas.

  7. #7
    gregaquaman's Avatar
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    Full auto is kind of for retards though.

    And even the gun rights crowd pretend that they would prefer gun owners not to be retarded.
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  8. #8
    Cassius's Avatar
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    Full auto (because scary fictional gangsters) is largely dumb, but if we can't get suppressors (because game wardens were afraid of poachers), SBSs (*), SBRs (*), and AOWs (*) off the NFA, full auto is never happening.

    *I assume banned because gangsters in trenchcoats???

    The purist in me thinks all these things should be available at the hardware store, but increasing population density and idiotic media coverage pretty much guarantee that if machine guns were unbanned, eventually some piece of **** would open up on an elementary school or Capitol Hill with a 240 bravo or Ma Deuce (nothing is actually stopping people from doing this now with a semiautomatic version except for human decency btw, or more likely it hasn't occurred to anyone with the resources to do it). We could pretty much count on losing all our gun rights at that point. I think a reasonable compromise would be to leave them on the NFA but reopen the registry.

    Per gregaquaman's comment: Cute but misses the mark. Gun rights advocates don't want ridiculous barriers to entry for firearms ownership. Period. Most of us would prefer human beings in general were not irresponsible morons, yet here we are . . . Pretty sure only statist assholes are going to tell you they have a solution for that problem. Hint: it's going to involve taking rights and/or property away from us by coercion.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal

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    submessenger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregaquaman View Post
    Full auto is kind of for retards though.
    Full auto is stupid... in weapons that weren't designed for full auto as the primary mode of operation. If the gun doesn't accept belt-fed ammunition, it's not really made for full auto.

    There is sort of a chicken and egg problem, because access to a "real" weapon *and* ammunition that would allow people to know what truly full auto is like is at the very least cost prohibitive, where not downright illegal. You have to think in dollars per second, for the light calibers that civilians already have access to you're maybe looking at $3 US per second as a floor. It goes up from there... on the ridiculous side, CIWS ammo costs over $2000 per second.

  10. #10
    ghost55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    Full auto is stupid... in weapons that weren't designed for full auto as the primary mode of operation. If the gun doesn't accept belt-fed ammunition, it's not really made for full auto.

    There is sort of a chicken and egg problem, because access to a "real" weapon *and* ammunition that would allow people to know what truly full auto is like is at the very least cost prohibitive, where not downright illegal. You have to think in dollars per second, for the light calibers that civilians already have access to you're maybe looking at $3 US per second as a floor. It goes up from there... on the ridiculous side, CIWS ammo costs over $2000 per second.
    A suppressed MP5k is a great CQB weapon. If I would afford it I would EDC a machine pistol.

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