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    737 MAX discussion and aftermath

    Breaking (choose your own adventure style):

    Democrat version:
    Trump fucks up air travel indefinitely. Turn to page 2020.

    Republican version:
    Trump decides out of "an abundance of caution," and in consultation with aviation authorities and manufacturers, to ground all 737 Max series airplanes. Turn to page 2020.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ely-crash.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    Breaking (choose your own adventure style):

    Democrat version:
    Trump fucks up air travel indefinitely. Turn to page 2020.

    Republican version:
    Trump decides out of "an abundance of caution," and in consultation with aviation authorities and manufacturers, to ground all 737 Max series airplanes. Turn to page 2020.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ely-crash.html


    Political insights around 13:30 ish and technical jabbertallywacking all throughout.

    I happen to like his take on most things and he makes sense here.
    Remember this was before they were grounded here. Anyone actually thinking at all should be happy that the FAA/Trump erred on the side of caution. I don't care that Trump wasn't first, I am glad someone somewhere acted ... and I doubt it was actually Trump but hiphiphurray for an act of Consumer Safety!
    “I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994

    "Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."
    ---Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey View Post


    Political insights around 13:30 ish and technical jabbertallywacking all throughout.

    I happen to like his take on most things and he makes sense here.
    Remember this was before they were grounded here. Anyone actually thinking at all should be happy that the FAA/Trump erred on the side of caution. I don't care that Trump wasn't first, I am glad someone somewhere acted ... and I doubt it was actually Trump but hiphiphurray for an act of Consumer Safety!
    Yeah, I actually watched this this morning, ahead of the Trump groundage news. He has some good insight into WTF is going on, both mechanically and politically. I couldn't fault him on either side.

    I've no doubt that they're going to chalk those two incidents up to pilot error, and technically it was, but turning off the AI magics shouldn't be that involved of a process. A lot of the fly-by-wire **** irks me. I mean, it works awesome 99.9% of the time, and these things really do fly themselves, especially with CAT-IIIB/C landings becoming more commonplace. But, you can't Macguyver your way out of something like this; the computer is going to make you disappear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    Yeah, I actually watched this this morning, ahead of the Trump groundage news. He has some good insight into WTF is going on, both mechanically and politically. I couldn't fault him on either side.

    I've no doubt that they're going to chalk those two incidents up to pilot error, and technically it was, but turning off the AI magics shouldn't be that involved of a process. A lot of the fly-by-wire **** irks me. I mean, it works awesome 99.9% of the time, and these things really do fly themselves, especially with CAT-IIIB/C landings becoming more commonplace. But, you can't Macguyver your way out of something like this; the computer is going to make you disappear.
    I am not a Pilot ... I don't even play one on the internet or sim one on the computer. I do like a little physics and piddle fucking around... but yeah it is my understanding that all modern planes are pretty solid ... and BECAUSE of that this issue needs to be looked at in the open and not hidden by political nonsense and concerns about stock.
    Last edited by BackFistMonkey; 3/13/2019 10:54pm at . Reason: I no English Major either ... nor even literate after a few drinks ....
    “I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994

    "Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."
    ---Jean-Paul Sartre

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    "U.S. Congress wants to know why the FAA waited so long to ground Boeing 737 jets"
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...idUSKCN1QU2KW?

    So it seems I may not care about the timing, but plenty of people do and it is not reading as a "partisan" issue as it is being spun.
    It is a safety and oversight issue.
    “I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994

    "Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."
    ---Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
    "U.S. Congress wants to know why the FAA waited so long to ground Boeing 737 jets"
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...idUSKCN1QU2KW?

    So it seems I may not care about the timing, but plenty of people do and it is not reading as a "partisan" issue as it is being spun.
    It is a safety and oversight issue.
    It is aggravating that all one can find in the interwebs is bloviating about the politics surrounding the issue, with no real technical data. One thing I've gleaned is that Boeing recognized the problem with the Lion Air crash, and promised a fix by April of this year.

    For those that are less educated, what I can offer is there appears to be a problem with the automatic stall prevention/correction system. A stall occurs when you put the aircraft into an attitude which it can no longer maintain laminar flow to remain airborne. This can happen in several scenarios, for example if you fly straight up and run out of thrust, or if you exceed your safe turning radius while banking for the given airspeed (called an un-coordinated turn, you can hear the instructor refer to this in the video, below). To recover from a stall, you level out and nose down to increase airspeed, and then pull up once you have re-established laminar flow. This is basic piloting 101 - your instructor will intentionally put you into a stall, multiple times, as part of your check ride.


    The "safety," system on the MAX aircraft will automatically take these actions. It seems like there is a problem either with the sensors themselves, or with the processing logic which relies on those sensors. And, as the AvE video shows, it seems like there is a convoluted method for overriding this, which is maybe not really trained, but may also be excessive in level of complexity.

    Here's a story with some graphics which explain this a little better:
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...rs/3129480002/

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    Boeing cockpits are all very similar, because they want pilots to be able to adapt very quickly to new models. If you can fly one, you can fly them all, basically. That's the strength and the weakness, here.

    That's why I think this is going to become pilot error. As a pilot, you need to know *all* of the systems on the aircraft intimately.

    So, I think there are two major problems:

    First, I'm betting that this stall prevention feature is not well trained, it's probably glossed over. So, pilots are not familiar with how and why it engages, nor with how to shut it off in a timely fashion. They will probably add some sort of manual switch that does the work, versus the apparently multi-step process which currently exists.

    Second problem is that the system doesn't appear to take into account other inputs like pitch and altitude. If so, this will be a big miss on Boeing's part. I can buy a drone for like $300 that can auto-hover in case of stall, and return home in case of signal loss. Yeah, I know not exactly the same thing. But, it kinda sorta is the same thing. This will be the "software upgrade," portion of the fix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Thanks, you must have been really, really, drunk to have looked at Fox news.

    Good job, Monkey!
    Speaking of weird.... I didn't expect the Boeing news to end up here.



    Then I realized it was because Trump wanted to "own it".
    “I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994

    "Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."
    ---Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Kinda veering way off PTOST, but - as a frequent flier - I just received this email communique:

    Quote Originally Posted by AA
    A message from American Airlines

    Yesterday, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) temporarily grounded all Boeing 737 MAX aircraft, including the 24 MAX aircraft operated by American. We have complied with the directive, which does not apply to our fleet of Boeing 737-800 aircraft.

    Teams throughout the airline have been working tirelessly to minimize the impact to you, our customers. We appreciate your patience and understanding with us during this busy travel period, and we apologize for the inconvenience this may cause.

    American is working in close coordination with the Department of Transportation, FAA, National Transportation Safety Board and other regulatory authorities, in addition to our union leaders and Boeing, to closely monitor the accident investigation into the crash of Ethiopian Airlines flight 302. American regularly monitors aircraft performance and safety parameter data across our entire fleet, which is operated and maintained by our highly-experienced and well-trained team, contributing to American’s exemplary safety record.

    Whether you’re traveling with us today, this week or this year, be assured the safety and security of our customers and team members is always our top priority and we will never operate an unsafe aircraft. Thank you for your continued confidence in American and in our 130,000 team members.

    Thank you for flying with us.
    So, I sorted kinda pointed this out, by not really mentioning it at all, just popping a link... the 737-800 and 737-700 planes that still comprise a significant part of the USian fleet across multiple carriers are *completely different* planes from the 2 737 MAX platforms that suffer from this problem. Just in case anyone was wondering, and I guess some people were, otherwise AA would not have sent out this message.

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    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    Kinda veering way off PTOST, but - as a frequent flier - I just received this email communique:
    Quote Originally Posted by AA
    A message from American Airlines

    Yesterday, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) temporarily grounded all Boeing 737 MAX aircraft, including the 24 MAX aircraft operated by American. We have complied with the directive, which does not apply to our fleet of Boeing 737-800 aircraft.

    Teams throughout the airline have been working tirelessly to minimize the impact to you, our customers. We appreciate your patience and understanding with us during this busy travel period, and we apologize for the inconvenience this may cause.

    American is working in close coordination with the Department of Transportation, FAA, National Transportation Safety Board and other regulatory authorities, in addition to our union leaders and Boeing, to closely monitor the accident investigation into the crash of Ethiopian Airlines flight 302. American regularly monitors aircraft performance and safety parameter data across our entire fleet, which is operated and maintained by our highly-experienced and well-trained team, contributing to American’s exemplary safety record.

    Whether you’re traveling with us today, this week or this year, be assured the safety and security of our customers and team members is always our top priority and we will never operate an unsafe aircraft. Thank you for your continued confidence in American and in our 130,000 team members.

    Thank you for flying with us.
    So, I sorted kinda pointed this out, by not really mentioning it at all, just popping a link... the 737-800 and 737-700 planes that still comprise a significant part of the USian fleet across multiple carriers are *completely different* planes from the 2 737 MAX platforms that suffer from this problem. Just in case anyone was wondering, and I guess some people were, otherwise AA would not have sent out this message.
    Yep, those things are grounded and stored here in Tulsa but AA is still running flights all over the place.

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