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  1. #1
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    The American Psychological Association Declares "Traditional Masculinity" Harmful

    If you haven't noticed lately I've been less invested in the self-defense and martial arts areas of what we do, and much more invested in the culture war, particularly where ideology is used to supersede science. This position always makes a certain segment of people uncomfortable, because there are legitimate historical examples of people misusing early science to justify atrocities.

    But these people fail to take into account that those attrocities were explicitly driven by ideology over facts as well; they just had faint veneer of actual science to appropriate credibility among a scientifically-illiterate public.

    Anyway, I'm not writing an article here, just presenting a topic for discussion.

    So if you follow me on Twitter you'll know I'm ankle-deep in some fields of academic psych. The APA last week released new recommendations on addressing what it feels is the problem of "Traditional Masculinity". The backlash was, understandably, harsh. But as with any backlash, just like with any large gathering of angry people yelling, all nuance is lost and cooler heads are drowned out by the screaming of the most enranged.

    I'll save you from reading the entire thing (here), but here's their own quick take on it:



    What are your thoughts? Is it "toxic" to be masculine? Are the traits needed by men like these to survive, no longer compatible with the modern world?


  2. #2
    And into the middle of this, Gillette released this ad:


  3. #3
    BKR's Avatar
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    Being an asshole is toxic. Asshole comes in all variety of humans, regardless off arrangement of chromosomes.

    What is the difference between "mean girl" behavior and "toxic masculinity" ?
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  4. #4
    Permalost's Avatar
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    I believe a lot of men won't get past the title before complaining in the comments section, so I'll probably avoid the discussion at the normal places (Facebook etc).

    This is one of those topics that will likely not get to the "what can we do about it?" stage, since the discussion will be centered on if the premise is true at all, like global warming.

    Does traditional masculinity have toxic properties? Sure, but you'd have to define traditional. There's a ton of old black and white photos of straight men holding hands and being very close, and it was the generation of men after them who'd call them nancys and homos. Which group do we call "traditional"?

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    If you haven't noticed lately I've been less invested in the self-defense and martial arts areas of what we do, and much more invested in the culture war, particularly where ideology is used to supersede science. This position always makes a certain segment of people uncomfortable, because there are legitimate historical examples of people misusing early science to justify atrocities.

    But these people fail to take into account that those attrocities were explicitly driven by ideology over facts as well; they faint veneer of actual science to appropriate credibility among a scientifically-illiterate public.

    Anyway, I'm not writing an article here, just presenting a topic for discussion.

    So if you follow me on Twitter you'll know I'm ankle-deep in some fields of academic psych. The APA last week released new recommendations on addressing what it feels is the problem of "Traditional Masculinity". The backlash was, understandably, harsh. But as with any backlash, just like with any large gathering of angry people yelling, all nuance is lost and cooler heads are drowned out by the screaming of the most enranged.

    I'll save you from reading the entire thing (here), but here's their own quick take on it:



    What are your thoughts? Is it "toxic" to be masculine? Are the traits needed by men like these to survive, no longer compatible with the modern world?

    Psychology as a discipline, and the papers in psychology research journals,

    more often than not,

    are pseudo-scientific philosophy, rather than science.

    And there are mutable fashion trends within it.

  6. #6

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    Oh you know me Phrost. I've been arguing about this bullshit term called "Toxic Masculinity" for awhile now. I have since refined my arguments since the last time we've had this conversation. I do believe there's this movement by certain fringes to sterilize what it is to be masculine. My daughter is in high school right now in California and it's hilarious on how they're trying to indoctrinate the kids in school. My daughter just did a report on "anit-feminism". I asked her why she chose the topic. She said just to piss everybody off.

  7. #7
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    Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) approves of this thread.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I believe a lot of men won't get past the title before complaining in the comments section, so I'll probably avoid the discussion at the normal places (Facebook etc).
    Dude. I've been straight-up trolling the people who follow Bullshido on Facebook only and don't post on the forums, for a while now. The comments over there are a whole new form of cancer.

  9. #9
    Dung Beatles's Avatar
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    Is masculinity harmful or has technology so badly changed the way we live that we no longer function as we evolved to function?

    Evolution only provides for the survival of the species in it's natural environment. So what the **** is natural about our present day environment?

    How far did you range from your dwelling to find fresh water? How many predators did you kill with your own two hands? When was the last time you formed up a posse to go stab a grizzly bear to death or spend 10 hours to find enough legumes and berries to eat? When was the last time you dispensed justice from the point of a spear or the weight of a club?

    We do not live as we evolved to live. We wear shoes scientifically designed to protect our feet from the environment. We wash our hands with hydrogen peroxide suspensions called soap. We have police, cell phones, ambulances, a giant box of every kind of medicine to treat lethal things that we don't even worry about anymore. We didn't even have hand writing until thousands of years after we had evolved to a creature that is biologically identical to the one that we are today.

    We are going to **** things up and kill each other needlessly because 10,000 years ago that meant our genes were the ones that got passed down. We all know that it's not natural to have an animal in a cage and then we build them for ourselves and wonder why some of us go fucking nuts.

  10. #10
    It is Fake's Avatar
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    I'm right where Omega is with blame shifting. If we are going down this road where do we start and stop? Is it masculinity that is at fault or the society which shapes and defines it? That's why I said, on the Facebook page, define it. Masculinity is not bullying, groping, sexual harassment, sexist comments, abuse or rape. I was never taught to be tough or masculine I have to engage in at least some of those acts to be a "man."

    What I find interesting is context and semantics. It is okay that I raised my daughters to go for it, go get it, be aggressive and go after what you want.

    When I tell people I raised my sons with the same attributes, it is now "toxic masculinity" and leads them to being possible bullies, abusers and rapists.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 1/15/2019 2:28pm at .

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