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  1. #61
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    It would be way harder to actually think for yourself. Amirite?
    You are so right. When someone I've been working with for a year or more goes to ADCC and Andre is cornering them. I totally want them to be confused when Andre shouts out "Sumi Gaeshi" and not "Front Headlock Suples". My independence and individuality works so well for my athletes in situations like that. Andre can tell me he wants it called **** on a stick, and that is what I'll teach my athletes to call it, so that they can get those podium finishes.
    Don't rely on theory if your life is at stake.

    "But now that you've anointed him as truthsayer, you'll be complicit with what happens when the next Jew comes here and is lambasted by an ultrasecular Rabbi" -W.Rabbit/Pship/Emily Dickinson/Earth Dragon/Self Proclaimed Editor Extraordinaire

  2. #62
    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten. supporting member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    You are so right. When someone I've been working with for a year or more goes to ADCC and Andre is cornering them. I totally want them to be confused when Andre shouts out "Sumi Gaeshi" and not "Front Headlock Suples". My independence and individuality works so well for my athletes in situations like that. Andre can tell me he wants it called **** on a stick, and that is what I'll teach my athletes to call it, so that they can get those podium finishes.
    As long as youíre cool with being wrong.

  3. #63
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    Nobody gets down to the minutiae like judoka. I would say All ura nage are suplexes..... but not all suplex are ura nage.
    That is probably fair enough about suplex. I mean, it's a French word, right, and I don't even know what it means in French.

    Around here they call them "soufles", as in the thing you cook in the oven. I tried to tell more than one person it's "suplex", and got argued with that a suplex was something different.

    Maybe it is, but you know how confusing schoolboy/Greco/Freestyle nomenclature can be...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  4. #64
    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten. supporting member
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    Whining about the nuances of Judo technique names is a cop out and an excuse to not be more educated on the subject of throwing. It’s also particularly ironic when it comes from dudes who are more than happy to spend the next 72 hours straight talking about the intricacies of an arm lock.

    It’s easier when you’re willing to just admit you don’t know everything.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    You know, back like a year or more ago, I asked you what this was called, and you said Hikkomi Gaeshi. So I went armed with that to teach my no gi take down class. A coach from the Israel national Judo team was there, and a few of his students. So I called it hikkomi gaeshi. At the time I was trying to stay away from the word suples because WWE and Suples being illegal in IBJJF ect. So the coach was very adamant that it was sumi gaeshi. Since then I don't use Judo terms at all in my classes normally. I don't have an Uke I have an Opie and I use the terms that USA Wrestling uses. Or I use the Russian Sambo terms if I'm teaching somethign with gi. I'm done arguing with Judoka about what they call their ****.
    Whose arguing ? I remember the post you are writing about. The Sumi Gaeshi/Hikkomi Gaeshi question is one of the more difficult ones. Typically, any sort of sacrifice throw the involves a foot/leg as an inside hook gets called Sumi Gaeshi by most judoka, regardless of any other subtleties involved. So that is what happened on that one.

    Yeah, I'd leave that alone, it's a losing battle. I gave up on it myself, mostly, unless I'm discussing it with someone with a somewhat open mind who doesn't freak out the instant their god-like knowledge is challenged.

    I've had the book written by the Technical Director of the Kodokan on Judo throwing techniques. Even that source hems and haws about certain throws, what they should be called, etc. Ura Nage vs Suplex and Hikkomi Gaeshi vs Sumi Gaeshi are two of the more controversial ones.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    most of them dont know what they are talking about. You can look each throw up in the kodakan syllabus. Ben is more correct here but its close imo.
    Its relatively rare for people to have both a strong academic interest in Judo and to be good at dropping MF'ers on their head. I do find both pursuits compliment each other though.
    Damn, Rayce you are nicer about it than I think/feel, that is for sure.

    I'd say anybody with a strong academic interest in Judo that does not speak/read/write Japanese, and have a strong grasp of Japanese history, including martial arts history, is probably not a true expert, with very few exceptions.

    Japanese throws are not really "scientifically" named. They tried to name stuff (other than poetic names like "Tani Otoshi" (Valley Drop)) according to the "throwing principle" used to finish the throw. I learned that from a guy who meets most of the requirements I noted in the previous paragraph, but even that guy is reviled (not without good reason) by a lot of high-ranking judoka. Go figure...

    So you have the "dropping" principle (otoshi), the "kari/gari" (cutting/scything principle), the "barai/harai" (sweeping) principle, the "nageru/nage" principle(throwing away/projecting), the suteru/sutemi principle (sacrifice/abandonment) principle. Those are useful to quite a degree, within that system, to me at least.

    I like the biomechanical approach that I've posted reference to before, as it's a true biomechanical classification, that the traditional throws can be fitted into, without the confusion of the Japanese names and "principles". So, Force-Couple throws, and Lever Throws.

    So, Osoto Gari is a Force-Couple throw, Seoi Nage is a Lever Throw.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Yeah well, as an ATOS club, when Andre Galvao comes by and says, "Hey, great sumi gaeshi you guys were here"... I don't care what it is called properly in Judo, as far as ATOS and my ATOS club is concerned it is Sumi Gaeshi.
    That's fair enough, for sure.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

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