1. #1

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    Tai Chi staff drill

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py7j7ZPlhzE

    A video I found recently, shows 2 practitioners using the staff in Chen style. It seems that I can find a ton of videos on the applications of the sword but not too much staff and absolutely zero guan dao.

  2. #2
    Diesel_tke's Avatar
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    Yeah, you know I've been doing Tai chi for many years as well as stick fighting. I was talking to my instructor one time about combining the two. He uses the sword form in Tai chi. But I was talking to him about using stick but combining techniques. In the end we determined that it just wouldn't work because the concepts are too different for certain postures. It would turn into a bastardized form of Tai Chi. In which case, neither of us wanted to be involved in.

    So I ended up just deciding to keep them separate. But I've always been interested in it. Just seemed to me that with Xingyi and Tai Chi being so connected, and Xingyi coming from a staff art, it would have been able to transition to combine them. But I guess there are enough forms to learn. :)
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_Claus View Post
    Yeah, you know I've been doing Tai chi for many years as well as stick fighting. I was talking to my instructor one time about combining the two. He uses the sword form in Tai chi. But I was talking to him about using stick but combining techniques. In the end we determined that it just wouldn't work because the concepts are too different for certain postures. It would turn into a bastardized form of Tai Chi. In which case, neither of us wanted to be involved in.

    So I ended up just deciding to keep them separate. But I've always been interested in it. Just seemed to me that with Xingyi and Tai Chi being so connected, and Xingyi coming from a staff art, it would have been able to transition to combine them. But I guess there are enough forms to learn. :)
    Hi

    I have only been doing Tai Chi "seriously" for the last 2 years or so. I have the good fortune to live in Hong Kong though, and have met quite a few very experienced and different Tai Chi people. Not always, but quite often they will have experience of multiple arts, both internal and external.

    In my opinion, and from my experience there is no problem or conflict with doing stick or anything else in the Tai Chi way. From what I understand of Tai Chi it is a state of body and mind. Its not a posture or form. Whatever you do will become or is Tai Chi.

    All the best

    Berni

  4. #4
    Diesel_tke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by berni29 View Post
    Hi

    I have only been doing Tai Chi "seriously" for the last 2 years or so. I have the good fortune to live in Hong Kong though, and have met quite a few very experienced and different Tai Chi people. Not always, but quite often they will have experience of multiple arts, both internal and external.

    In my opinion, and from my experience there is no problem or conflict with doing stick or anything else in the Tai Chi way. From what I understand of Tai Chi it is a state of body and mind. Its not a posture or form. Whatever you do will become or is Tai Chi.

    All the best

    Berni
    Well, if you are doing a stick form. For example we do a drill called the wave where you are standing in your normal stance with stick forward, then you will lunge forward perform a strike then hop back to the original starting position. Then an L step into a shuffle step then back to center. Most of those movement with the feet and arm positions do not correspond to the 13 principles of Tai Chi.

    Just the dynamics of the drill violates a few of those like Relaxing of the head, sinking the chi to the dan tien, using mind instead of force, continuity and evenness throughout the form...stuff like that.

    If you do drills like roofblock, triangle step forward, strike, triangle step back the other way, side step, back handed roofblock, trigngle step....You have violated a couple of the stepping principles not to mention opening and closing of the kua properly, using dantien rotation, and establishing and maintaining peng jin and the ground path.

    Matter of fact as far as maintaining the ground path and silk reeling, you pretty much can't do that at all when stick fighting. You have to be way more evasive.

    Some of the push hands and sticky hands is relivant when you are inside after contact with the stick. I would think that is the most applicable part between stick fighting and Tai Chi. That can be trained either way and I've used Tai Chi the most in those areas. But more so with knife fighting than stick.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_Claus View Post
    Well, if you are doing a stick form. For example we do a drill called the wave where you are standing in your normal stance with stick forward, then you will lunge forward perform a strike then hop back to the original starting position. Then an L step into a shuffle step then back to center. Most of those movement with the feet and arm positions do not correspond to the 13 principles of Tai Chi.

    Just the dynamics of the drill violates a few of those like Relaxing of the head, sinking the chi to the dan tien, using mind instead of force, continuity and evenness throughout the form...stuff like that.

    If you do drills like roofblock, triangle step forward, strike, triangle step back the other way, side step, back handed roofblock, trigngle step....You have violated a couple of the stepping principles not to mention opening and closing of the kua properly, using dantien rotation, and establishing and maintaining peng jin and the ground path.

    Matter of fact as far as maintaining the ground path and silk reeling, you pretty much can't do that at all when stick fighting. You have to be way more evasive.

    Some of the push hands and sticky hands is relivant when you are inside after contact with the stick. I would think that is the most applicable part between stick fighting and Tai Chi. That can be trained either way and I've used Tai Chi the most in those areas. But more so with knife fighting than stick.
    Hi

    Thank you for your reply. I fully understand what you are saying and why you are saying it. And it does in fact make sense from our western perspective.

    It is said by those that have walked the path that it takes 10 years before you are no longer a beginner at Tai Chi. If Tai Chi was a set of movements or more simply principles would it really take so long? And i know many practitioners who have been doing it for a lot longer than that and they can still be easily pushed by a small Chinese woman over 60 years old who really knows what she is doing. Finding a Tai Chi teacher is easy. Finding a truly good teacher is super difficult. Even in China and HK.

    From what I understand Tai Chi is a feeling. All of the Jongs, forms and exercises are there to help one develop that feeling. The bottom line is that Peng enters and emerges from the body when not thinking through the brain, but from being mindful, and accepting. If the body is song then Peng will come. You can stand however you like once you have this feeling. You can hold whatever you like and move in any way. I'm not saying that I can do this. My envelope of performance is much smaller.

    Tai Chi embodies a philosophy. Its part of what makes it so powerful, and allows it to be applied wherever and whenever. Its in everything you do. I have to be very careful when I teach JKD and KM to keep anything to do with internal arts well out of it. Its still in the way I move, but I just don't talk about it. You cant see it, but you can feel it.

    All the best

    Berni

  6. #6
    Diesel_tke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by berni29 View Post
    Hi

    Thank you for your reply. I fully understand what you are saying and why you are saying it. And it does in fact make sense from our western perspective.

    It is said by those that have walked the path that it takes 10 years before you are no longer a beginner at Tai Chi. If Tai Chi was a set of movements or more simply principles would it really take so long? And i know many practitioners who have been doing it for a lot longer than that and they can still be easily pushed by a small Chinese woman over 60 years old who really knows what she is doing. Finding a Tai Chi teacher is easy. Finding a truly good teacher is super difficult. Even in China and HK.

    From what I understand Tai Chi is a feeling. All of the Jongs, forms and exercises are there to help one develop that feeling. The bottom line is that Peng enters and emerges from the body when not thinking through the brain, but from being mindful, and accepting. If the body is song then Peng will come. You can stand however you like once you have this feeling. You can hold whatever you like and move in any way. I'm not saying that I can do this. My envelope of performance is much smaller.

    Tai Chi embodies a philosophy. Its part of what makes it so powerful, and allows it to be applied wherever and whenever. Its in everything you do. I have to be very careful when I teach JKD and KM to keep anything to do with internal arts well out of it. Its still in the way I move, but I just don't talk about it. You cant see it, but you can feel it.

    All the best

    Berni
    Yeah, I agree that Tai Chi principles can be applied across a lot of different styles. I would think that it would be easier to apply Tai Chi principles to stick fighting than it would be to apply stick principles to Tai Chi. I guess that's probably the hang up. I think if you were to carry a stick and use it in a form and then try to spar with those techniques, you will get destroyed. But if you train stick fighting and then take Tai Chi principles and throw them in at a few appropriate places, you will get a much better response.

    I think this is the main reason my instructor and I decided to just keep them separate. Keeps from muddying the water too much.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_Claus View Post
    Yeah, I agree that Tai Chi principles can be applied across a lot of different styles. I would think that it would be easier to apply Tai Chi principles to stick fighting than it would be to apply stick principles to Tai Chi. I guess that's probably the hang up. I think if you were to carry a stick and use it in a form and then try to spar with those techniques, you will get destroyed. But if you train stick fighting and then take Tai Chi principles and throw them in at a few appropriate places, you will get a much better response.

    I think this is the main reason my instructor and I decided to just keep them separate. Keeps from muddying the water too much.
    Hello, yes I agree with what you say. Mixing things up and adding to things does not always produce a positive result. I think it was Ted Wong who said "a rose is a rose a violet a violet" I cannot remember the rest of the quote, but the gist is that if you mix them you loose the essence of both and can never separate them after. Worth remembering for sure.

    Train well!

    Berni

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