1. #1

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    Hard Style Pancrase like wrestling in the West?

    I was googling Reddit looking for discussions about the latest fighting events, Wilder vs Fury and so on. After sarisfying my curiosity, I decided to brose randomly in the General Discussion area and found a sub that kind of interested me.

    The guy was asking if Shoot Style, NON SCRIPTED la Pancrase wrestling could find success in the West today. He cited this web page and talked about what originated what we know as Pro Wrestling rules, such as the no punching to the face and the 3 pin count:

    http://www.allinwrestling.co.uk/rules/index.html

    He then argued that this ruleset, with some modifications, would be more entertaining to watch than Pancrase, saying that the latter sometimes was too much of a boot kicking fest with leglocks in between.

    According to guys like Luta Livre Andy Conda, who researched this topic, the first promoted Vale Tudo matches had rules inspired on this, with some differences such as no pins, kicks allowed from anywhere and less restrictions on crippling holds. Euclydes Hatem would have participated in this events, it seems. The rules would eventually get looser until becoming the Vale Tudo we know.

    The redditor then wondered if a fighting promotion with a similar ruleset could succeed in the US and later spread to the world, and asked for opinions. Personally, I think this kind of Hybrid Wrestling had it's time 25 years ago and may never take off outside of Japan, although I could be wrong. The Catch guys may find this useful to promote their sport by using it in a similar way Eddie Bravo implemented those palm strikes overtime in Combat Jiu Jitsu. It may fade away after a decade or so, but give them enough air to finally start getting some notoriety in the UFC.
    Last edited by Metallist; 12/03/2018 11:43am at .

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metallist View Post
    I was googling Reddit looking for discussions about the latest fighting events, Wilder vs Fury and so on. After sarisfying my curiosity, I decided to brose randomly in the General Discussion area and found a sub that kind of interested me.

    The guy was asking if Shoot Style, NON SCRIPTED la Pancrase wrestling could find success in the West today. He cited this web page and talked about what originated what we know as Pro Wrestling rules, such as the no punching to the face and the 3 pin count:

    http://www.allinwrestling.co.uk/rules/index.html

    He then argued that this ruleset, with some modifications, would be more entertaining to watch than Pancrase, saying that the latter sometimes was too much of a boot kicking fest with leglocks in between.

    According to guys like Luta Livre Andy Conda, who researched this topic, the first promoted Vale Tudo matches had rules inspired on this, with some differences such as no pins, kicks allowed from anywhere and less restrictions on crippling holds. Euclydes Hatem would have participated in this events, it seems. The rules would eventually get looser until becoming the Vale Tudo we know.

    The redditor then wondered if a fighting promotion with a similar ruleset could succeed in the US and later spread to the world, and asked for opinions. Personally, I think this kind of Hybrid Wrestling had it's time 25 years ago and may never take off outside of Japan, although I could be wrong. The Catch guys may find this useful to promote their sport by using it in a similar way Eddie Bravo implemented those palm strikes overtime in Combat Jiu Jitsu. It may fade away after a decade or so, but give them enough air to finally start getting some notoriety in the UFC.
    No kicking? That sucks.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    No kicking? That sucks.
    Yep, no kicking unless struggling to get free from a hold. This is the Non Holds barred Catch old man Billy Robinson talked about, the one he bragged about saying that a ''mediocre Catch Wrestler of the 30's would destroy the best MMA fighters of today.'' Lol, wonder how many of those guys would have survived or even got past the kicks of, let's say, Yair Rodriguez, Aldo or Barboza. Not to say the old man didn't have any valuable stuff to teach, though. Even more recent old timers like el Guapo tend to say questionable things from time to time.

    A modern version of this sport might use a modified rule such as allowing kicking inside the clinch or with at least one hand clearly holding the opponent, and allowing any knees even without a hold. I suppose this was done back in the day to keep the sport as Wrestling centric, allowing only short strikes.
    Last edited by Metallist; 12/03/2018 1:24pm at .

  4. #4

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    Shoot wrestling, or shoot fighting, including the restart to standing on grabbing the rope is always a pretty good show.

    It is frustrating for the grapplers, because of the restarts to standing.

    But it makes for a more exciting match for the spectators in many cases, because of that.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krampus View Post
    Shoot wrestling, or shoot fighting, including the restart to standing on grabbing the rope is always a pretty good show.

    It is frustrating for the grapplers, because of the restarts to standing.

    But it makes for a more exciting match for the spectators in many cases, because of that.
    I agree, it can make a good show. I still like to watch Minoru Suzuki's and Frank Shamrock's old bouts from time to time. It may arguably be more palatable and appealing for pro Wrestling fans than MMA.

    The rules I linked to didn't make any provisions for rope escapes, which would definitely be well received by grapplers. Since ground striking was not banned neither discouraged by the fans (as far as I know), the ground action could still be quite fluid. A possible modification to that rule could be punishing any grab of the ropes to avoid take downs as an ''escape'', being accounted as a -1 or -2 points for the fighter in question, but without resetting the fight on the center. Something similar for the ground. Even if the fighter escapes the submission, he could still lose on points.

    What I would definitely not allow would be those damn shiny speedos, and maybe the boots neither, lol.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metallist View Post
    I agree, it can make a good show. I still like to watch Minoru Suzuki's and Frank Shamrock's old bouts from time to time. It may arguably be more palatable and appealing for pro Wrestling fans than MMA.

    The rules I linked to didn't make any provisions for rope escapes, which would definitely be well received by grapplers. Since ground striking was not banned neither discouraged by the fans (as far as I know), the ground action could still be quite fluid. A possible modification to that rule could be punishing any grab of the ropes to avoid take downs as an ''escape'', being accounted as a -1 or -2 points for the fighter in question, but without resetting the fight on the center. Something similar for the ground. Even if the fighter escapes the submission, he could still lose on points.

    What I would definitely not allow would be those damn shiny speedos, and maybe the boots neither, lol.
    They made us wear the boots or shin pads because the leg breaks were pretty common from people firing off leg kicks and their opponents blocking in manners designed to maximize the chance of the leg break occurring.

    A lot of the shoot fighters knew how to throw the thai kicks at some level, but were not rigorously trained Thai boxers nor the Kyokushin Karate guys who put in the time to really know how to throw them and did the leg conditioning to boot.

    So, they would break their own legs more often than you see in Thai boxing or today's UFC fights, especially when their opponent was actually trained in Thai or Kyokushin Karate more professionally, hence the boots or shin pads.
    Last edited by Krampus; 12/03/2018 3:51pm at .

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krampus View Post
    They made us wear the boots or shin pads because the leg breaks were pretty high from people firing off leg kicks and their opponents blocking in manners designed to maximize the chance of the leg break occurring.

    A lot of the shoot fighters knew how to throw the thai kicks at some level, but were not rigorously trained Thai boxers nor the Kyokushin Karate guys who put in the time to really know how to throw them and did the leg conditioning to boot.

    So, they would break their own legs more often than you see in Thai boxing or today's UFC fights, especially when their opponent was actually trained in Thai or Kyokushin Karate more professionally, hence the boots or shin pads.
    So you fought in Shoot Wrestling? That's cool....or did you mistakenly type ''us'' instead of ''them''?

    Yeah, I know those boots were more like shin pads to protect fighters from busting their legs. The thing is, at least as I see it, if we play by this rules and only allow kicks from the clinch or while holding an opponent with at least one hand, those kicks will not travel enough distance or land in the correct angle to hurt that much. I've tried purring and have been purred while sparring Thai and it hurts, but I don't think it would break my shin, and my shins were never the hardest in my gym. My training pals were probably not the hardest kickers, though.

    Wrestling shoes are a must, however, to keep the image. Kneecap protectors maybe?
    Last edited by Metallist; 12/03/2018 3:58pm at .

  8. #8

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jFtcJzvWCs

    I would like to think it would look similar to this bout, with most of the action taking place in the short range. With this rules, however, Ken might have hinished Bas way earlier, being able to either blow out his face with elbows or pin him.

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