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  1. #1
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    Old Judo Randori Video - 1934 Nagoaka in USA

    This one is a bit different, not sure if it has been posted here before.

    Hideichi Nagaoka was one of the early students of Kano at the Kodokan, but not one of the shitenno (original 4 students/guardians of the Kodokan).
    Here is a blurb about him from Wiki, which is consistent with other notes I've read about him.

    Notably, he fought matches (and probably trained with) Mataemon Tanabe, of Fusen Ryu fame, and trained in Kito Ryu before moving to the Kodokan. Kito Ryu is pretty much the base for Kodokan Judo, and is where Kano lifted randori and kuzushi from.

    Anyway, we get to see Nagaoka do some self defense stuff (similar to goshin jutsu, which was not invented at time of the video (1934), so more related to kime no kata.

    The guys doing most of the randori are obviously not very high level judoka, but are for sure vigorous and transition from standing to ground.
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    It looks more like yakusokugeiko than randori to me.

    Also one guy does the juji gatame with the wrong leg, and the choke holds at the end are done wrong imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    Also one guy does the juji gatame with the wrong leg, and the choke holds at the end are done wrong imo.
    The leg positioning in the juji @0:56 is not "wrong", it's harder to get the tap but it works. It lacks Seiryoku-Zenyo. The chokes at the end are loose, but I've seen worse.

    And magic pants...
    Last edited by DCS; 7/13/2018 2:10pm at .

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    It looks more like yakusokugeiko than randori to me.
    agreed. it looks like they're exchanging tori/uke roles with some live movement, but aren't resisting the throws, and only giving minimal resistance in newaza.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    The leg positioning in the juji @0:56 is not "wrong", it's harder to get the tap but it works. It lacks Seiryoku-Zenyo. The chokes at the end are loose, but I've seen worse.

    And magic pants...
    I think that at 4:42 there is a juji where tori places a leg above the breast, but not the leg above the face/neck, so that uke could just stand up.
    I say "I think" because due to the angle of the picture, it may be that it's not a juji and I'm misunderstanding what tori is doing, but if it is a juji as I believe, it's wrong.

    The chokes are lose and, worse, it seems to me that tory doesn't really understand where he should push to get maximum effect.
    In randori, as long as the other guy is controlled and maybe taps, it's okay. But I think this is yakusokugeiko; in yakusokugeiko uke isn't fully resisting so you are supposed to do the techniques in a formally more correct way.
    Or at least show that you know where you have to put force to choke a guy.

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    I'd say it IS randori....how it's supposed to be for this level. There is resistance, yakusoku geiko is more confined imho. Most people who claim to do "randori" are indeed doing borderline shiai. That's what 99% are doing. But these are students who are still supposed to get the timing and relative positions and movements right, as you can easily see the way he does the coaching. Sometimes they switch to yakusoku geiko, especially when corrected.

    But just because they are more towards yakusoku geiko does not mean they are not doing randori. In the end, it is a continuum, not discrete forms of training. I really think most people really think rather shiai intensity than randori when thinking of randori.

    I actually like what I see there. Not technique-wise, but instruction-wise and training-form wise.

    Many beginner/intermediate students these days are too fast in escalating towards shiai, with full out kumi kata and doggedness. This slows progress when you still learn when and how to apply a throw. It's not a western phenomenon, seen it in Japanese university teams as well. What I see in this video are some not perfectly executed, but nevertheless effortless throws because of good timing. And because the form is not ruined too early by excessive resistance.
    Last edited by Falenay; 7/13/2018 3:17pm at .

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    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    It looks more like yakusokugeiko than randori to me.

    Also one guy does the juji gatame with the wrong leg, and the choke holds at the end are done wrong imo.
    Yeah, yakusokugeiko by modern standards. Back then, randori was not treated as match, as it is mostly today.

    Juji Gatame has a lot of leg position variations and angles that work. I learned that once I did some BJJ.

    The shime waza was not expertly done, but judging from the reaction of the only white-boy uke, it was working. Unless it was show for the camera.
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    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    The leg positioning in the juji @0:56 is not "wrong", it's harder to get the tap but it works. It lacks Seiryoku-Zenyo. The chokes at the end are loose, but I've seen worse.

    And magic pants...
    I think Nagaoka could wear magic pants with impunity...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  9. #9
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falenay View Post
    I'd say it IS randori....how it's supposed to be for this level. There is resistance, yakusoku geiko is more confined imho. Most people who claim to do "randori" are indeed doing borderline shiai. That's what 99% are doing. But these are students who are still supposed to get the timing and relative positions and movements right, as you can easily see the way he does the coaching. Sometimes they switch to yakusoku geiko, especially when corrected.

    But just because they are more towards yakusoku geiko does not mean they are not doing randori. In the end, it is a continuum, not discrete forms of training. I really think most people really think rather shiai intensity than randori when thinking of randori.

    I actually like what I see there. Not technique-wise, but instruction-wise and training-form wise.

    Many beginner/intermediate students these days are too fast in escalating towards shiai, with full out kumi kata and doggedness. This slows progress when you still learn when and how to apply a throw. It's not a western phenomenon, seen it in Japanese university teams as well. What I see in this video are some not perfectly executed, but nevertheless effortless throws because of good timing. And because the form is not ruined too early by excessive resistance.
    yeah, I'd have to agree with you on that.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Yeah, yakusokugeiko by modern standards. Back then, randori was not treated as match, as it is mostly today.

    Juji Gatame has a lot of leg position variations and angles that work. I learned that once I did some BJJ.

    The shime waza was not expertly done, but judging from the reaction of the only white-boy uke, it was working. Unless it was show for the camera.
    I can understand this, but I still have doubts about juji gatame.
    I rewatched the video and I saw the same "error" in two points: at 2:10 and at 4:42. In both instances tori does jujigatame with the "wrong" leg; maybe it's a different form of control where tori only uses the bent knee to control uke's head, but it seems strange to me.

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