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  1. #21
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BJMills View Post
    I would argue that tactics and strategy both inform and are informed by styles.
    Partially. Rule sets play a huge role in this too. I mean butt scooting in certain BJJ competitions came about because you aren't penalized for it, so it becomes a strategy. In IBJJF huge impressive throws almost never happen because a take down is only 2 points, and numpty judges are just as likely to rule a valid throw a slam and DQ you(there is a youtube channel full of that stuff).

    EBI- The 10P guys who were so keen on getting a win over a DDS member, developed a silly strategy of stalling for 10min and letting their opponents wear themselves out in regulation trying for something silly like a submission in a supposedly submission only tourney to then get set up in a dominant position to gain ride time and sub attempts in OT for wins.

    CJJ- Another brain child of EB that 10P guys were desparate to win. Boogey Martinez's entire strategy was to stall on his feet for 10 minutes, and thus avoid ever being hit in a striking tournament and once again employing the same strategy as in EBI.

    Wrestlers regularly give up their backs in competition because of the rules that award points if your back is even pointed at the mat. Take away back points and allow chokes and submissions and a long count for a pin(you know the way it was done until the 1924 and you will have a much different animal.

    That MMA has a unified rule set, puts it well on its way to being a style. In another 10 or 15 years, it probably will be its own style. Much like Catch Wrestling and Freestyle have diverged since FILA tried to clean it up in 1924(the French ruin everything).
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  2. #22

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    IMHO, a martial art is defined by a) principles (technical and moral) and b) training methodology. A set of techniques that are taught is no martial art. A set of rules is no martial art. Martial arts are born when techniques are methodologically and materially intertwined with the principles and "laws" of the fighting they teach, thus it is appropriate to speak of Chinese martial arts (e.g. Bagua) or HEMA (e.g. fencing) and of Judo as the first modern martial art.

    Insofar MMA is about fighting in a cage under a bunch of rules, it clearly is not a martial art.

    But as soon as someone comes up with a unique system of principles, training methods, and technical solutions that are intertwined with some moral principles that seem to be expressed in the rules of MMA (e.g. fight head on - no punches/kicks from behind in standing game, respect for the opponent, don't give your back in ground game, whatever) and addresses all aspects of fighting that may occur in the ring, one could say that MMA has become a martial art - but it is nonsense to think that this is the martial art MMA. It is simply a martial art.

    The problem with that: Looking at the training of professional MMA fighters, it is obvious that it is more effective to train with specialists that have the experiences of a lifetime in an isolated aspect of fighting since they simply know/understand it more deeply and can improve the student even in the highest levels. Training in several martial arts can hardly be considered to constitute a martial art of its own. Thus, given that humans will have a hard time becoming specialists in boxing, any form of kickboxing, takedowns/transition, and no-gi submission within their lifetime, every holistic system conceived and taught by a human will be deficient and produce inferiour fighters compared to those who train with specialists.

    Conclusion: If someone forms MMA into a martial art, the students of this martial art will never be as good in MMA as those who train in specialised martial arts.

    TL;DR: It can be both, I'd say. Doesn't mean it is gonna be the perfect martial art for MMA.
    Last edited by Falenay; 7/12/2018 3:11am at .

  3. #23
    gregaquaman's Avatar
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    MMA is a style. The BJJ, boxing, kickboxing, wrestling and so on are useful drills for that style.

    Otherwise if a thing is a thing, then it exists. So if I can point to a table then that is a table. That is how we know it is there.

    So if I can walk in to a gym and train in MMA. then it is a style.
    Last edited by gregaquaman; 7/12/2018 6:43am at .
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  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Partially. Rule sets play a huge role in this too. I mean butt scooting in certain BJJ competitions came about because you aren't penalized for it, so it becomes a strategy. In IBJJF huge impressive throws almost never happen because a take down is only 2 points, and numpty judges are just as likely to rule a valid throw a slam and DQ you(there is a youtube channel full of that stuff).

    EBI- The 10P guys who were so keen on getting a win over a DDS member, developed a silly strategy of stalling for 10min and letting their opponents wear themselves out in regulation trying for something silly like a submission in a supposedly submission only tourney to then get set up in a dominant position to gain ride time and sub attempts in OT for wins.

    CJJ- Another brain child of EB that 10P guys were desparate to win. Boogey Martinez's entire strategy was to stall on his feet for 10 minutes, and thus avoid ever being hit in a striking tournament and once again employing the same strategy as in EBI.

    Wrestlers regularly give up their backs in competition because of the rules that award points if your back is even pointed at the mat. Take away back points and allow chokes and submissions and a long count for a pin(you know the way it was done until the 1924 and you will have a much different animal.

    That MMA has a unified rule set, puts it well on its way to being a style. In another 10 or 15 years, it probably will be its own style. Much like Catch Wrestling and Freestyle have diverged since FILA tried to clean it up in 1924(the French ruin everything).
    I concur. Actually my first post in this thread was along the lines of the more restrictive the ruleset the more cohesive the style they competes under it (e.g. all point karate looks like point karate, all Greco Roman looks like Greco Roman). When you get to mma which is currently the least restrictive ruleset there is so much variation of paths to victory day different ‘styles’ can succeed there in different ways.

    My point was Machida and Matt Hughes were both successful mma fighters with vastly different styles and presumably training methodologies.

  5. #25
    Diesel_tke's Avatar
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    It's easier to see the different martial arts when you look at the older MMA fighters. You see there that some came from wrestling backgrounds and then transitioned into striking and MMA and then the opposite.

    Now days, when you look at these younger fighters coming up, a lot of them didn't start in a style and went strait to MMA gyms to learn to fight within this rule set. The same way wrestlers train under that rule set, or Judo guys train under that rule set, or KK train under that rule set, or MT guys train under that rule set. All seems the same to me.
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  6. #26
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    I think it's fair to call MMA a style at this point in time, or at the very least a category of styles. There are variations between techniques and training methods between schools, but for the most part, people will have a solid idea of what you do if you tell them that you "train MMA." Kickboxing is in the same boat.

    Being composed of techniques from different disciplines shouldn't preclude it from being considered a style. I'd say the vast majority of styles today are composed of techniques from older disciplines (I'm sure everyone here has heard people pointlessly criticize BJJ for deriving its techniques from Judo, even though Judo itself was created from older Japanese jujutsu styles just a few decades prior). Plus, even though most of the techniques come from other styles, the way they're timed, set-up, and combined in MMA is unique. A fighter who trained only in individual striking and grappling disciplines without putting everything together would struggle a lot trying to compete in the sport today.
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Moment View Post
    I think it's fair to call MMA a style at this point in time, or at the very least a category of styles. There are variations between techniques and training methods between schools, but for the most part, people will have a solid idea of what you do if you tell them that you "train MMA." Kickboxing is in the same boat.

    Being composed of techniques from different disciplines shouldn't preclude it from being considered a style. I'd say the vast majority of styles today are composed of techniques from older disciplines (I'm sure everyone here has heard people pointlessly criticize BJJ for deriving its techniques from Judo, even though Judo itself was created from older Japanese jujutsu styles just a few decades prior). Plus, even though most of the techniques come from other styles, the way they're timed, set-up, and combined in MMA is unique. A fighter who trained only in individual striking and grappling disciplines without putting everything together would struggle a lot trying to compete in the sport today.
    Seconded.

  8. #28

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    false dichotomy

    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Moment View Post
    I think it's fair to call MMA a style at this point in time, or at the very least a category of styles. .

    1. Not all martial arts are combat sports.
    2. All combat sports, by definition, are martial arts. When people train combat sports they train to defend themselves, almost regardless of rule set.
    3. MMA is a combat sport.
    4. MMA is a martial art.

    But it is ALSO a rule set in which multiple martial arts can compete against each other. K-1 striking competition, by today's standards reflecting a very specific set of kickboxing rules, the "k" in the title originally stood for rival striking martial arts: Karate, Kung Fu, Kenpo, Kickboxing. If you were involved in Kickboxing in the early 90's as I was, this made a lot of sense, because back then kickboxing was a way for rival martial arts schools to compete against each other in a full contact venue.

    Because kumite point-figting is also a combat sport. And what happened before kickboxing is these rival striking styles competed in point-fighting against each other, and the extraordinary crappiness of point-fighting rubbed off on them creating what we now think of as TMA. So back before kickboxing, there was kung-fu flavored kumite point fighting, karate flavored kumite point fighting, kenpo flavored kumite point fighting, etc. And all katas and wooden dummies aside, that's basically the only striking training available to most people in that era.

    Though a standardized amateur tournament ruleset for MMA has yet to materialize (not sport jujitsu, not pro hapkido, not pankration...) MMA is as much of a martial art as boxing is. Not all boxing gyms share identical training methodologies and strategies, and there are rivalries between gyms and coaches with significant stylistic differences, but if you can call boxing a martial art (and not simply a competition for rival boxing schools to compete in,) than MMA is a martial art.

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