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  1. #1
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
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    Systema Ground Work is Awesome



    My favorite bit is at 2:10
    What happens when you end up on the ground, and the guy is bigger, he's stronger he's up on top. And then there is a third person coming in to hit you?
    The simple answer to that is that you are going to get your face rearranged. I really wish they would have given their magical systema grappling answer, but I'm not sure even someone like Dean Lister or Andre Galvao would be able to reliably fight their way out of that.
    Don't rely on theory if your life is at stake.

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    halfcut's Avatar
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    At no point in that video did i see anything even remotely resembling any sort of pressure or control from the demonstrator on their opponent. Just impotent flailing and unrealistic feedback. They'll probably sell a ton of these

  3. #3
    BKR's Avatar
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    I'm not getting exactly the point of the video. I see some flow-type drills poorly done, like a bunch of white belts, with the skinny, hollow-chested instructor only being marginally better.

    What is really confusing is that for self defense, I'd either want to control, or finish a guy off, on the ground, and I'm not going to stay on the ground any longer than I have too.

    I don't see any control, and no striking.

    Systema is about self defense, correct ?

    Maybe this stuff is like the Shomen Uchi drills you posted in another thread...conceptual exercises.

    I'd put Dean Lister up against 2 or 3 bigger stronger dudes, no problem. As long as they were not BJJ black belts. But he is a freak of nature, and outliers are not the way to judge effectiveness for mere mortals.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I'm not getting exactly the point of the video. I see some flow-type drills poorly done, like a bunch of white belts, with the skinny, hollow-chested instructor only being marginally better.

    What is really confusing is that for self defense, I'd either want to control, or finish a guy off, on the ground, and I'm not going to stay on the ground any longer than I have too.

    I don't see any control, and no striking.

    Systema is about self defense, correct ?

    Maybe this stuff is like the Shomen Uchi drills you posted in another thread...conceptual exercises.

    I'd put Dean Lister up against 2 or 3 bigger stronger dudes, no problem. As long as they were not BJJ black belts. But he is a freak of nature, and outliers are not the way to judge effectiveness for mere mortals.
    TBF, my impression is that the main idea of Systema is "Be water, my friend" - just without the fighting, more like as slippery as an eel. And if you are 100% relaxed there can be 10 people around you trying to smash you as hard as they can and no hit will hurt you. Having achieved that level of evasiveness through a bunch of conceptual exercises - which, as you can tell by their physical build, is all they do - you start to actually turn that ability into offense.

    Problem being: Nobody ever reaches that level in Systema through Systema. The videos of people doing "Systema punches" are by people that formerly learned to punch in another art punching untrained guys.

    The effective use of kinetic chains (think DK Yoo) simply involves a different kind of training.

  5. #5
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falenay View Post
    TBF, my impression is that the main idea of Systema is "Be water, my friend" - just without the fighting, more like as slippery as an eel. And if you are 100% relaxed there can be 10 people around you trying to smash you as hard as they can and no hit will hurt you. Having achieved that level of evasiveness through a bunch of conceptual exercises - which, as you can tell by their physical build, is all they do - you start to actually turn that ability into offense.

    Problem being: Nobody ever reaches that level in Systema through Systema. The videos of people doing "Systema punches" are by people that formerly learned to punch in another art punching untrained guys.

    The effective use of kinetic chains (think DK Yoo) simply involves a different kind of training.
    Being evasive and slippery is a good thing, for sure. But it's not the be all and end all.

    As for DK Yoo...haven't seen any footage of him actually fighting with anybody who knows what they are doing. Have you?
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

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  6. #6
    halfcut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Systema is about self defense, correct ?
    More like money and Russian Orthodox Jesus

  7. #7
    Raycetpfl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falenay View Post
    TBF, my impression is that the main idea of Systema is "Be water, my friend" - just without the fighting, more like as slippery as an eel. And if you are 100% relaxed there can be 10 people around you trying to smash you as hard as they can and no hit will hurt you. Having achieved that level of evasiveness through a bunch of conceptual exercises - which, as you can tell by their physical build, is all they do - you start to actually turn that ability into offense.

    Problem being: Nobody ever reaches that level in Systema through Systema. The videos of people doing "Systema punches" are by people that formerly learned to punch in another art punching untrained guys.

    The effective use of kinetic chains (think DK Yoo) simply involves a different kind of training.
    Everyone you are speaking of in your post are hacks and posers that use unrealistic techniques and have never stepped up to prove them against legit competition. They are what's wrong with martial arts.

    DK Yoo and these systems fakes would get dropped on their heads and destroyed against actual fighters from sambo, Bjj,muay thai or kickboxing. They have turned warm ups into fake martial arts.

  8. #8
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfcut View Post
    More like money and Russian Orthodox Jesus
    Of course, but I was just pretending for sake of discussion.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  9. #9
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    Everyone you are speaking of in your post are hacks and posers that use unrealistic techniques and have never stepped up to prove them against legit competition. They are what's wrong with martial arts.

    DK Yoo and these systems fakes would get dropped on their heads and destroyed against actual fighters from sambo, Bjj,muay thai or kickboxing. They have turned warm ups into fake martial arts.
    Indeed they have.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    Everyone you are speaking of in your post are hacks and posers that use unrealistic techniques and have never stepped up to prove them against legit competition. They are what's wrong with martial arts.

    DK Yoo and these systems fakes would get dropped on their heads and destroyed against actual fighters from sambo, Bjj,muay thai or kickboxing. They have turned warm ups into fake martial arts.
    I would never claim that DK Yoo can fight, only that he definitely is able to produce real power through kinetic chains - which in the context of Systema is often used to make a case for the superiorness of Systema because it looks like their twerking. Does this make him a fighter? Or any guy who can punch and does Systema? By all means no.

    I never claimed otherwise. I even pointed out that you obviously do not learn to even punch at all within Systema because of the way they train.

    In other words, against dumbassery:

    1) Systema training seems to consist exclusively of conceptual exercises of how to relax, be in movement, evade forces.
    2) Even IF one is very benevolent and concedes that this MIGHT lead to a point where one is able to be very evasive in a fight (I do not believe that), they do not learn to attack with power in their weird exercises.
    3) DK Yoo can do a powerful punch by exploiting kinetic chains. It looks a bit like Systema, people claim it is (I do not think so). Some Systema guys can punch (although the videos I saw are against completely untrained guys).
    4) Thesis: All of them did not learn to punch with reasonable power in Systema, since the training method is not adequate for that.
    5) Even IF (and that's a big if) they WOULD in years and years and years of compliant flow exercises learn how to do a powerful punch, that is not the same as being able to fight, even less be good in self-defence
    6) Systema is bullshit for fighting in any rule-set or self-defence.

    Guess I cannot make myself understood more clearly.

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