1. #1

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    Strength moves vs technical ones

    Do you feel there are moves that require strength over technique? A classic example I beleive would be Marcelo Garcia claiming that kimura is a strong man technique.

    Do you think there are moves that rely on strength, or just people that use these techniques that rely on strength. In other words, are there details that make “strong man” Jiu Jitsu achievable for smaller skinnier folks?

    A kimura is a classic example. What about double underhooks pass? Do you feel these are big guy techniques specifically in that hey require strength?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumby View Post
    Do you feel there are moves that require strength over technique? A classic example I beleive would be Marcelo Garcia claiming that kimura is a strong man technique.

    Do you think there are moves that rely on strength, or just people that use these techniques that rely on strength. In other words, are there details that make “strong man” Jiu Jitsu achievable for smaller skinnier folks?

    A kimura is a classic example. What about double underhooks pass? Do you feel these are big guy techniques specifically in that hey require strength?
    Power slams. Quinton Rampage style.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Power slams. Quinton Rampage style.
    I can’t think of rampage without thinking of his fight with arona....

  4. #4

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    I think this cuts both ways. Sure, there are things you can do with more success/easier/less effort compared to other guys simply because you are stronger. Hip control from underneath to some extent relies on leg strength IMHO, for example. But relaxation allowing for mobility and pressure as well as using your hips instead of extremities are technical aspects that make up for a lot of strength deficiencies.

    I think there are two factors to be considered in that discussion: First, if you have a lot of experience and developed good technique, your muscles are trained to do all that much more efficiently, i.e. even if you do not consciously use strength and move "effortless", you are strong by the standards of "normal" people because of highly improved inter- and intra-muscular coordination.In other words: An expert in a given technique will always feel like a "strongman" within certain limits, even if he has less muscle mass. Secondly, this makes up for a lot of the usual trade-off between strength (being tensed/stiff) and relaxation (allowing for mobility).

    Now, as of kimura, I'd say that there certainly are setups for the kimura (like against turtle position) that, given the opponent is not a novice, need at least a similar, if not higher level of strength to be effective reliably, especially with a gi where you have more options of securing in your own gi/belt. On the other hand, I'd personally consider setups that need physical advantages and are only reliably applicable for certain specimen in general "bad technique" (no matter the factual success of some guys with those setups). There are "good technique" variants of kimura, but it all hinges at the setup. In the end, a technique is not the ending position, but how you get there.

    In other words: If you dismiss pure smashing, I'd say existing "techniques" (ending positions that have names) developed because there are setups that allow for defeating even stronger opponents, otherwise it would never have made sense to preserve them over generations. But in today's highly competitive world of genetic freaks fighting each other, less favourable setups are used with success just because of physical prowess. These should not necessarily be taught, though. They develop as individual ways and variants in rolling naturally as "their" way.

    Now let Rayce make mincemeat of my arguments.
    Last edited by Falenay; 6/09/2018 6:04am at .

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    I haven't really noticed the kimura being a strong man's submission, but I'm clearly missing something, because everyone else everywhere seems to think it is.
    Maybe i just haven't noticed because I rarely finish with the kimura anyway but use it more to set up hip bumps and back takes, which ofc are examples of action-reaction and therefore pretty good against strong guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumby View Post
    Do you feel there are moves that require strength over technique? A classic example I beleive would be Marcelo Garcia claiming that kimura is a strong man technique.
    Marcelo calls "strenght moves" the ones he's lost to.


    Do you think there are moves that rely on strength, or just people that use these techniques that rely on strength. In other words, are there details that make “strong man” Jiu Jitsu achievable for smaller skinnier folks?
    You mean if it is possible for small guys to succesfully use big guys game?

    A kimura is a classic example. What about double underhooks pass? Do you feel these are big guy techniques specifically in that hey require strength?
    I think these are techniques that require some adaptation for smaller/weaker guys, for instance:


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