1. #1
    lt_flippy's Avatar
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    Crappy submissions as setups

    Does anybody have any submissions they learned somewhere that don't actually work, but happen to be great setups? Stuff you end up just doing because you have the muscle memory, and it kind of works in another way so you keep doing it.

    I know a bunch of people are gonna be like "you're just not it right", but there are a lot of techniques that just aren't going to work against someone with grappling experience.

    For instance, I was taught a Hapkido/Aikido knife defense as a kid in my TKD class that looked kind of like this:



    I don't see anybody really getting that in a ground-fighting situation cause it's easy to fight out of, but that's one of my most reliable routes to a kimura.

    This is another good example:



    There are also a lot of wrist-locks, but they aren't really competition legal. However, my jiu jitsu professor showed me how some positions are still legal if half your palm is on their forearm and you're just keeping their wrist straight.
    Last edited by lt_flippy; 5/24/2018 8:45am at .

  2. #2
    DCS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lt_flippy View Post
    I don't see anybody really getting that in a ground-fighting situation cause it's easy to fight out of, but that's one of my most reliable routes to a kimura.
    It's a standing americana/shoulder lock, it's basically a takedown. Going for a kimura after that is making things more complicated than they really are.

    This is another good example:

    Reinforced underhook... what's the problem with it?

    There are also a lot of wrist-locks, but they aren't really competition legal.
    What?

  3. #3
    lt_flippy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    It's a standing americana/shoulder lock, it's basically a takedown. Going for a kimura after that is making things more complicated than they really are.
    I might be confusing the kimura with americana (I looked it up and found out it matters which way you make the arm point). I was just trying not to call it the "paintbrush thing".

    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Reinforced underhook... what's the problem with it?
    It's a great takedown, but it's sometimes taught as a pain compliance knife disarm technique in "self-defense" classes (the old-school ones where they tell you to hit someone's nose with your palm).

    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    What?
    Ok, so, I looked it up and the wrist lock thing is white belt and children's rules for some BJJ rulesets. I might have also gotten the impression they're not allowed in competition because I get told not to do them.

    I was basically wondering if anyone ever got told as a kid by someone who may not have be considered an expert by modern standards, "this is how you defend yourself against someone with a knife/stop a mugger", and you know it be a bad idea to try and use that knife disarm IRL as an adult, but you find yourself still using that technique as a setup or takedown because you have the muscle memory and perceive the opening for it.

    Thought it might be very relate-able to people that did Tae Kwon Do or some other traditional martial art as a kid.
    Last edited by lt_flippy; 5/24/2018 11:22am at .

  4. #4

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    I call the Americana a kimura as well. There IS a creative way to finish it that will maximize its effectiveness...…

    But lets look at it from another viewpoint. With an underhook from cross side, the "step over armbar" or (whatever the hell you want to call it) is a very common submission attempt. As such when you get this underhook its very common for people to attempt to pummel their hands inside to defend. This is one classic setup that throws the kimura second on the list of attempted subs, rather than first.


    In short, the submission isn't really crappy because it requires your opponent actually defend it. If they don't, it works! That's hardly the fault of the submission per se though. What you'll notice is that people are rarely successful with their first attempt, whatever it is. Consider a higher rank you see go for an x choke and then hits the armbar when its defended. Nothing wrong with either, as they're both just as effective as the other- your opponent merely defended the first one they saw. If you reverse this submission combo, you'd be more likely to have people defending the armbar and then giving you the X choke.

    Now in regards to your kimura (Americana) you're probably throwing it first. Most people do- its short and sweet, so its one of the first subs any beginner learns. If you compliment it with another sub, chances are better that second sub will work well. When you get good at hitting the second sub and people know you for it, reverse the attack sequence...

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