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  1. #11
    BackFistMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remington50 View Post
    So basically bullshido then. Not a real system.


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    It is a real system. Just of two main camps, neither of which I can get behind but one more grounded in reality than the other. Both play off the Special Forces secret martial art cliche and both rely on marketing rather than results to get their point across you know giant douche or **** sandwich. One is obviously really really bad for you and the other just bad in smaller ways.

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    ďI don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.Ē
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  2. #12
    Raycetpfl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remington50 View Post
    So it is a “sorcery” thing like Chi?


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    sor∑cer∑y
    ˈsŰrs(ə)rē/Submit
    noun
    the use of magic, especially black magic.
    synonyms: (black) magic, the black arts, witchcraft, wizardry, enchantment, spells, incantation, witching, witchery, thaumaturgy
    "the practice of sorcery was strictly forbidden"

  3. #13
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remington50 View Post
    Sorry if this has been posted. I looked, but my search functions are limited on my phone and Iím a little doped up on Oxy and Valium (my back injury took a turn for the worst and I ended up in the ER yesterday).

    So while I lay here with nothing to do...I gotta ask. Is this BS? It certainly looks it to me from several videos. Iíd be curious to see who has experience with it. It looks pretty damn fake to me. Especially when the fat guy does it. Iím just curious what everyone else thinks/knows. I just happened across it recently.

    https://youtu.be/fevJpzGUYpA

    https://youtu.be/fevJpzGUYpA


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    It has been posted before, but I'll take another swing at answering the question. I can provide documentary evidence for most of what I write here, there are a couple of things that I have lost over the years... But I still have most of the pieces.

    So somewhere between the late 1960s-1970s the USSR decides that Japanese Jiu Jitsu, what their elite soldiers had been learning, is essentially BS and they settle on a guy names A.A. Kadochnikov to put together a research team to develop a better martial art. He put together a team of folks from serious multi-disciplinary backgrounds. PhD types in physiology, psychology ect. as well as Master of Sport in Judo, Sambo, boxing and wrestling, and a couple of GRU Spetsnaz veterans. So for 20+ years they researched and refined what could essentially be called the Combat Sambo equivalent of the Gracie Combatives System, Matt Larsen's MACP or possibly even Greg Thompson's SOCP, i.e. not a functional martial art in and of itself, but a workable system for what it was intended for, and easily blended back into combat Sambo.

    Somewhere around 1989 Retuinskih started working with Russian Olympic Committee to integrate, what was then, superior training and conditioning techniques into various Russian Sports(many of these things have since been adopted into mainstream combat sports outside of Russia by groups like 10P, ONNIT, and Ido Portal). He also started teaching very basic seminars for civilians in Moscow and St. Petersburg. There is record of Vladamir Vasiliev having attended two of those 3 day seminars.

    In 1991 the Soviet Union fell. With that A.A. Kadochnikov lost his contract with the GRU. A.I. Retuinskih(who was then the director of education for the Kadochnikov System, then called The System of Practical Mechanics for Survival in Extreme Situations), wanted to do four things which ultimately caused a rift between him and Kadochnikov, 1) Teach the general public 2) Teach foreigners 3) Enter the realm of Sport specifically in Boxing and Sambo 4) get a contract with the MVD and FSB(two branches of what had once been the KGB). Kadochnikov wanted to retain the purity of the system and his then communist ideals, so he objected to each 1) A military system is not meant for the general public 2) Teaching foreigners would be a betrayal of the homeland 3) Sport would erode the effectiveness of the system as people would train to rulesets instead of reality 4) he would fully vested in the army's side rivalry between the Army and KGB.

    Yeltsin did two things that really made this situation even crazier, after the attempted coup he decided to decentralize power both in the KGB and the Military. The KGB was broken up into separate entities along the lines of its earlier directorates and hard core communists were fired. The military command was decentralized so that regional commands had full autonomy, and likewise the GRU went from being a single entity to several entities. So now individual units of the GRU Spets could adopt whatever martial art system there was. One unit, that of Alexandr Kistin, one of the original researchers who sided with Retuinskih took up Retuinskih's system(now called ROSS). Another unit(or part of a unit) which had Kadochnikov's son Arkady as their CO took up Kadochnikov's system.

    The other thing Yeltsin did was institute a crash course in capitalism which essentially meant turn capitalist or starve. This lead to a truly crazy situation in which quite literally everything in Russia was for sale. There are two documentaries out there that provide FBI records that at one point the Cali Cartel was in negotiations to buy a Russian nuclear submarine, which if they wanted would even come equipped with a full compliment of nuclear missiles, 43million USD for the sub, 10mil USD extra if you wanted a side of nukes with that. So in 1994 Retuinskih started recruiting westerners from places like the UK and the US(mostly he would show up at big Judo, Sambo and Wrestling comps and put on a seminar). Initially you would think you were just getting Combat Sambo, but then you would find yourself training alongside FSB and MVD guys(and Russian Mafia) at RETAL. He and Kistin seeing a capitalistic opportunity would, for what they thought was a lot of money, but was really stupid low prices, arrange for a person to go through the various Spets training courses of the GRU, MVD and FSB. There were 4 or 5 westerners that went through those courses(but that is a side point).

    In 1993 Vladimir Vasiliev founded his Toronto School of Systema. He published a manual, which was plagiarized from Retuinskih's manual. No remember Vasiliev had only attended 2 ROSS seminars, and had never received an instructors cerfiticate. But he started teaching, and producing videos. Somewhere around '97 the US ROSS representatives got their hands on a Vasiliev manual, got Retuinskih involved, a lot of stuff happened. First Vasiliev pointed out, rightly, that the patent to the manual was actually owned by Kadochnikov(which was true, as Retuinskih published it in Kadochnikov's journal originally) and so tried to claim, very briefly, that Kadochnikov was his instructor and that he and Retuinskih were on the same level. Kadochnikov got involved briefly, denied he ever met Vasiliev, and joined the effort to have his manual taken out of publication for plagiarism. So then Vasiliev got his old buddy Ryabko involved, who is/was a practitioner of some form of Kung Fu and a Russian internal energy art called Lubki. So in order to not have say that they were less than honest, Vasiliev and Ryabko did some weird mash up of ROSS, Kung Fu and Lubki, added push ups and breathing exercises out of the Philokalia and called it the real Systema.

    In 1996 A.I. Retuinskih was awarded Honored-Merited Master of Sport in Sambo and Combat Sambo by the Russian Sambo Federation for revolutionizing the sport. Essentially, the combatives curriculum that Kadochnikov and Retuinskih developed, as well as much of the conditioning stuff was adopted in to most branches of Combat Sambo and is now standard combat sambo fare just about everywhere. There some differences in the educational paradigm and depending on which stream of combat sambo the amount of other survival skills taught, but if you are in the US, and you want anything remotely resembling the actual Spets fighting system, combat sambo is your best bet. If you are in the UK, there are a couple of Retuinskih trained guys who can give you the full meal deal, one of whom is a Master of Sport himself(in other words a genuine BAMF).

    As far as people in North America that have trained in Russia either under Retuinskih or Kadochnikov(excluding any Russian immigrants that I don't know and who aren't doing anything) you have Greg Lees, he now coaches wrestling at some HS and pretty much has written off the MA world. Ben Brackbill, he's completely out of the game last I checked, Scott Fable, he still does some private lessons but you have to bring a training partner, David Rusin and Oleg Yakimovich up in New Jersey who still occaisonally try to get something going. Shawn Menard and Mike Hults are also out of the game last I checked. Scott Sonnon, he was originally the chief represntative, him and Retuinskih had some sort of rift back in the early 2000s, which had Retuinskih essentially pull out of the US for nigh on a decade, Sonnon now has his own thing going which has been through several iterations. In all honesty Sonnon is a great coach, regarding anything else and him, google is your friend and buyer beware.

    Matt Powell originally trained ROSS than transitioned to Kadochnikov and trained extensively in Krasnodar. He was for a while the official Kadochnikov rep in the US with his K-Sys. He then evolved that into the various iteration of Pramek as he continued to research effective combative and educational methods. While he has developed an effective combatives system, and an even more interesting educational framework, the actual Russian influence there is quite minimal at this point as far as technique goes. In my personal opinion(which is obviously biased) he stayed true to first principles of the original Russian research group, and has simply surpassed them by going on superior Western research into education and physical training.

    So regarding V/R Systema and its branches. If you had 48hrs of mat time learning 10P warmups, then went off and mashed that up with some obscure kung fu and weird internal energy art like Tai Chi or something, would it be any good? That is pretty much exactly what Vasiliev and Ryabko did, and branded it Systema.
    Don't rely on theory if your life is at stake.

    "But now that you've anointed him as truthsayer, you'll be complicit with what happens when the next Jew comes here and is lambasted by an ultrasecular Rabbi" -W.Rabbit/Pship/Emily Dickinson/Earth Dragon/Self Proclaimed Editor Extraordinaire

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    It has been posted before, but I'll take another swing at answering the question. I can provide documentary evidence for most of what I write here, there are a couple of things that I have lost over the years... But I still have most of the pieces.

    So somewhere between the late 1960s-1970s the USSR decides that Japanese Jiu Jitsu, what their elite soldiers had been learning, is essentially BS and they settle on a guy names A.A. Kadochnikov to put together a research team to develop a better martial art. He put together a team of folks from serious multi-disciplinary backgrounds. PhD types in physiology, psychology ect. as well as Master of Sport in Judo, Sambo, boxing and wrestling, and a couple of GRU Spetsnaz veterans. So for 20+ years they researched and refined what could essentially be called the Combat Sambo equivalent of the Gracie Combatives System, Matt Larsen's MACP or possibly even Greg Thompson's SOCP, i.e. not a functional martial art in and of itself, but a workable system for what it was intended for, and easily blended back into combat Sambo.

    Somewhere around 1989 Retuinskih started working with Russian Olympic Committee to integrate, what was then, superior training and conditioning techniques into various Russian Sports(many of these things have since been adopted into mainstream combat sports outside of Russia by groups like 10P, ONNIT, and Ido Portal). He also started teaching very basic seminars for civilians in Moscow and St. Petersburg. There is record of Vladamir Vasiliev having attended two of those 3 day seminars.

    In 1991 the Soviet Union fell. With that A.A. Kadochnikov lost his contract with the GRU. A.I. Retuinskih(who was then the director of education for the Kadochnikov System, then called The System of Practical Mechanics for Survival in Extreme Situations), wanted to do four things which ultimately caused a rift between him and Kadochnikov, 1) Teach the general public 2) Teach foreigners 3) Enter the realm of Sport specifically in Boxing and Sambo 4) get a contract with the MVD and FSB(two branches of what had once been the KGB). Kadochnikov wanted to retain the purity of the system and his then communist ideals, so he objected to each 1) A military system is not meant for the general public 2) Teaching foreigners would be a betrayal of the homeland 3) Sport would erode the effectiveness of the system as people would train to rulesets instead of reality 4) he would fully vested in the army's side rivalry between the Army and KGB.

    Yeltsin did two things that really made this situation even crazier, after the attempted coup he decided to decentralize power both in the KGB and the Military. The KGB was broken up into separate entities along the lines of its earlier directorates and hard core communists were fired. The military command was decentralized so that regional commands had full autonomy, and likewise the GRU went from being a single entity to several entities. So now individual units of the GRU Spets could adopt whatever martial art system there was. One unit, that of Alexandr Kistin, one of the original researchers who sided with Retuinskih took up Retuinskih's system(now called ROSS). Another unit(or part of a unit) which had Kadochnikov's son Arkady as their CO took up Kadochnikov's system.

    The other thing Yeltsin did was institute a crash course in capitalism which essentially meant turn capitalist or starve. This lead to a truly crazy situation in which quite literally everything in Russia was for sale. There are two documentaries out there that provide FBI records that at one point the Cali Cartel was in negotiations to buy a Russian nuclear submarine, which if they wanted would even come equipped with a full compliment of nuclear missiles, 43million USD for the sub, 10mil USD extra if you wanted a side of nukes with that. So in 1994 Retuinskih started recruiting westerners from places like the UK and the US(mostly he would show up at big Judo, Sambo and Wrestling comps and put on a seminar). Initially you would think you were just getting Combat Sambo, but then you would find yourself training alongside FSB and MVD guys(and Russian Mafia) at RETAL. He and Kistin seeing a capitalistic opportunity would, for what they thought was a lot of money, but was really stupid low prices, arrange for a person to go through the various Spets training courses of the GRU, MVD and FSB. There were 4 or 5 westerners that went through those courses(but that is a side point).

    In 1993 Vladimir Vasiliev founded his Toronto School of Systema. He published a manual, which was plagiarized from Retuinskih's manual. No remember Vasiliev had only attended 2 ROSS seminars, and had never received an instructors cerfiticate. But he started teaching, and producing videos. Somewhere around '97 the US ROSS representatives got their hands on a Vasiliev manual, got Retuinskih involved, a lot of stuff happened. First Vasiliev pointed out, rightly, that the patent to the manual was actually owned by Kadochnikov(which was true, as Retuinskih published it in Kadochnikov's journal originally) and so tried to claim, very briefly, that Kadochnikov was his instructor and that he and Retuinskih were on the same level. Kadochnikov got involved briefly, denied he ever met Vasiliev, and joined the effort to have his manual taken out of publication for plagiarism. So then Vasiliev got his old buddy Ryabko involved, who is/was a practitioner of some form of Kung Fu and a Russian internal energy art called Lubki. So in order to not have say that they were less than honest, Vasiliev and Ryabko did some weird mash up of ROSS, Kung Fu and Lubki, added push ups and breathing exercises out of the Philokalia and called it the real Systema.

    In 1996 A.I. Retuinskih was awarded Honored-Merited Master of Sport in Sambo and Combat Sambo by the Russian Sambo Federation for revolutionizing the sport. Essentially, the combatives curriculum that Kadochnikov and Retuinskih developed, as well as much of the conditioning stuff was adopted in to most branches of Combat Sambo and is now standard combat sambo fare just about everywhere. There some differences in the educational paradigm and depending on which stream of combat sambo the amount of other survival skills taught, but if you are in the US, and you want anything remotely resembling the actual Spets fighting system, combat sambo is your best bet. If you are in the UK, there are a couple of Retuinskih trained guys who can give you the full meal deal, one of whom is a Master of Sport himself(in other words a genuine BAMF).

    As far as people in North America that have trained in Russia either under Retuinskih or Kadochnikov(excluding any Russian immigrants that I don't know and who aren't doing anything) you have Greg Lees, he now coaches wrestling at some HS and pretty much has written off the MA world. Ben Brackbill, he's completely out of the game last I checked, Scott Fable, he still does some private lessons but you have to bring a training partner, David Rusin and Oleg Yakimovich up in New Jersey who still occaisonally try to get something going. Shawn Menard and Mike Hults are also out of the game last I checked. Scott Sonnon, he was originally the chief represntative, him and Retuinskih had some sort of rift back in the early 2000s, which had Retuinskih essentially pull out of the US for nigh on a decade, Sonnon now has his own thing going which has been through several iterations. In all honesty Sonnon is a great coach, regarding anything else and him, google is your friend and buyer beware.

    Matt Powell originally trained ROSS than transitioned to Kadochnikov and trained extensively in Krasnodar. He was for a while the official Kadochnikov rep in the US with his K-Sys. He then evolved that into the various iteration of Pramek as he continued to research effective combative and educational methods. While he has developed an effective combatives system, and an even more interesting educational framework, the actual Russian influence there is quite minimal at this point as far as technique goes. In my personal opinion(which is obviously biased) he stayed true to first principles of the original Russian research group, and has simply surpassed them by going on superior Western research into education and physical training.

    So regarding V/R Systema and its branches. If you had 48hrs of mat time learning 10P warmups, then went off and mashed that up with some obscure kung fu and weird internal energy art like Tai Chi or something, would it be any good? That is pretty much exactly what Vasiliev and Ryabko did, and branded it Systema.
    Thank you. I appreciate the response. Iíve seen some of the silly 1 inch punch stuff. But didnít know where all the silly training came from.


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