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  1. #11
    BackFistMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    I've found honestly and civility go a long way with law enforcement. Both women lacked the latter.
    Well yes that of course goes without saying. Being respectful and civil is almost always a plus. But even barring that... just do what the man with the badge and guns says yo.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
    Well yes that of course goes without saying. Being respectful and civil is almost always a plus. But even barring that... just do what the man with the badge and guns says yo.
    Yes. Knowing this makes us wiser than two women who missed a train.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    Yes. Knowing this makes us wiser than two women who missed a train.
    I'm not saying a video won't surface of me being roughed up by an LEO but if it happens I promise it wasn't cause I was just trying to be a dick or flex back.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    As far as my investigation has gone, it's against the rules of the train. I'm not sure it's so much that she put her foot up on the seat as much as she didn't want to follow simple instructions. In the state of California both females are guilty of a little know law which is normally named "Interfering with the duties of an officer", which can actually be any public official; more specifically first responders.
    j

    Resist/Obstruct LEO is a pretty common charge around here, as is (purposefully) giving false information to LEO.

    It's little known in CA.

    Maybe they don't want feet on seats because the seat can get dirty for the next person to sit there, or, because it takes up an empty seat for another passenger ?

    In any case, spitting on LEO is a felony in Idaho, LOL...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
    I wish people would understand that the current way in which LEA interact with the general public is completely one sided. If an officer tells you to do something you better do it. They are your judge, jury, and executioner as long as a judge jury and executioner are not in the same room. You shut the **** up and do what the man with the gun says.

    You don't like it, take it up with the powers that be but that is the current reality of the situation. Just shut the **** up and do what the man with the gun says.
    Whether or not that is the new reality, or not, it's always been a risk to disobey a lawful order from LEO. The risk depends on the severity of the situation and of course the level of professionalism of the LEO.

    Default is to do as told, of course, but, if one is sure of oneself and the law, consensual contact can be broken off. But it does not take much for a LEO to articulate reasonable suspicion and detain for investigation...as you say, you have to go with the process at that point in court.

    If all LEO were professional and acted in good faith all the time, and did not make mistakes, no worries. But being human beings in human institutions, that is not the case.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Whether or not that is the new reality, or not, it's always been a risk to disobey a lawful order from LEO. The risk depends on the severity of the situation and of course the level of professionalism of the LEO.

    Default is to do as told, of course, but, if one is sure of oneself and the law, consensual contact can be broken off. But it does not take much for a LEO to articulate reasonable suspicion and detain for investigation...as you say, you have to go with the process at that point in court.

    If all LEO were professional and acted in good faith all the time, and did not make mistakes, no worries. But being human beings in human institutions, that is not the case.
    From what i have read about how to properly arrest someone behaving peacefully but being non compliant; he could have called for back up the moment he intended to arrest her, and just stayed beside her until it arrived. Slapped the cuffs on while the other officers kept bystanders away and had another officer collect her things. I know i'm just nit picking though and wasn't there.

    I think he realized that might been a better alternative when things escalated with the public after he managed to drag her off the train.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    But being human beings in human institutions, that is not the case.
    Well it's fight or flight, not fight, flight, or submit.

    I don't think humans submit easily by nature. They are far more likely to run or fight unless conditioned. I think they have to be programmed to submit on various levels, and depending on how that happens ad hoc, you get different outcomes. There's even a BJJ/judo tie in here...the spaz who won't tap vs the non-spaz who knows; the key variable is training.

    Some people end up programmed to submit even when scared and they'd rather run or fight, which is a good thing when it comes to staying out of jail, but also a great way to become a slave, depending on the exact authorities involved.

    As far as cops, I think most sober, civil citizens are programmed to respect uniforms. I also think younger people and especially little bratty kids will always be a wild card, and that's why juvenile detention exists.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 1/28/2018 4:20pm at .

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Well it's fight or flight, not fight, flight, or submit.

    I don't think humans submit easily by nature. They are far more likely to run or fight unless conditioned. I think they have to be programmed to submit on various levels, and depending on how that happens ad hoc, you get different outcomes. There's even a BJJ/judo tie in here...the spaz who won't tap vs the non-spaz who knows; the key variable is training.

    Some people end up programmed to submit even when scared and they'd rather run or fight, which is a good thing when it comes to staying out of jail, but also a great way to become a slave, depending on the exact authorities involved.

    As far as cops, I think most sober, civil citizens are programmed to respect uniforms. I also think younger people and especially little bratty kids will always be a wild card, and that's why juvenile detention exists.
    I think hierarchy is part of human nature, maybe at a biological level even.

    Fight or flight is about as primitive as it gets...socialization (training) goes a long way to avoiding problems with anybody, including the police.

    Fighting cops rarely works out well for anyone. Cops really don't want to have to do it, either.

    Juvies who fight cops usually have bigger issues than with cops. IME, they tend to run (like cops breaking up a drinking party). Funny thing is, I've seen stuff in court where the cops raided a big party. Some of the kids ran and were not drinking, so did not need to run, other than maybe getting into trouble with parents for being underage at a party with alcohol available. Other kids just stood there, the cops questioned them and let them go because they were sober (if they had car or sober ride home). Other kids were drunk and didn't run, and other kids were drunk and ran.

    Personally, I'd rather be inconvenienced by being detained and questioned by cops than get cuffed and go to jail, regardless the inconvenience involved, or how much I thought my rights were being violated. If they were, time to file a complaint and hire an attorney.

    IME, most folks are ignorant about how cops work, and how they are trained to think and behave, and the law in general regarding being detained, arrested, etc.

    Ignorance is not bliss...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by lant3rn View Post
    From what i have read about how to properly arrest someone behaving peacefully but being non compliant; he could have called for back up the moment he intended to arrest her, and just stayed beside her until it arrived. Slapped the cuffs on while the other officers kept bystanders away and had another officer collect her things. I know i'm just nit picking though and wasn't there.

    I think he realized that might been a better alternative when things escalated with the public after he managed to drag her off the train.
    Being non-compliant is chargeable offense most places. Something like "Resist-Obstruct", usually a misdemeanor. Includes resisting arrest but not physically attacking the officer.

    Bad situation all around in the video...If he had been mobbed, shots would have been fired more than likely...

    Calling for backup would have been good, but who knows exact circumstances.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    I've found honestly and civility go a long way with law enforcement. Both women lacked the latter.
    When I was in the (UK) Police we had what we called the "attitude test", if you were pleasant with us then we would be pleasant with you. If you weren't then, well......

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