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  1. #51
    DCS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcerTempest View Post
    What is the appropriate response to individuals that have no problem ignoring these universal ethics for anyone outside their group?
    Fixed.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Fixed.
    Not really. Because it's not really an individual problem. If it were, for example, WW2 in Europe would have been able to be won by simply assassinating Hitler. Although that was tried, no one was going to put away the bombs, planes, and tanks just yet even if it had succeeded.

    It is not just about individuals at that point, it is also about those that they influence. Now, it is impossible to say how much influence anyone has over anyone else, but let's look at the claims of the Nuremberg trials shall we.

    How many of the defendants said something along the lines of "Befehl ist Befeh"?

    Now you might think "Ahh, but the court rejected that defense."

    But of course they did. That wasn't a trial. It was an excuse to hang Nazis and not feel bad about it.
    Look at this more recent trial:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superi..._United_States

    And the doctrine of command responsibility here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_responsibility

    There were several international groups calling for the head of President Bush and Donald Rumsfeld due to their conduct of the Iraq invasion.
    That said, no one was going to actually arrest them due to the influence they had over others. For the same reason no one is going to arrest Tony Blair even though he is technically under the jurisdiction of the relevant laws and claims that have been made. His influence over others is such that he can effectively ignore such things. How much MORE influence do individuals have in areas where there are fewer checks on individual power than their are in say, the UK, or even the US though we have gotten bad about it lately?

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcerTempest View Post
    How many of the defendants said something along the lines of "Befehl ist Befeh"?

    Now you might think "Ahh, but the court rejected that defense."

    But of course they did.
    Not every German was tried in Nuremberg, only a bunch of selected individuals.

    That wasn't a trial. It was an excuse to hang Nazis and not feel bad about it.
    As if hanging Nazis without feeling bad about it needs some kind of excuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Not every German was tried in Nuremberg, only a bunch of selected individuals.



    As if hanging Nazis without feeling bad about it needs some kind of excuse.
    NOW it wouldn't. But back then it kinda did, as keeping in mind there were people in the United States and elsewhere that sympathized with the Nazis. There still are. We haven't been able to eliminate them yet. Mostly because we hold ourselves to a higher standard of behavior than they do and are, at least most us, trying not to become them.

  5. #55
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    You know, you could have just said the cultural subgroup == "Muslim terrorist/Mexican gangmember" and the survival mechanism == "keep the Muslims/MS-13 out". It's not racist if you're that specific, see?

    The two leaders you posted couldn't be more different, but maybe I'm not reading you correctly...Ulil Abshar Abdalla is a conservative Islamic reformer, not a violent radical. Maybe you mean the issuers of the fatwa...either way, I still don't think you can argue the people who are interested in carrying out a death fatwa are greater than the 1/100,000 range.

    Generally, the existence of "death cults" or otherwise violent subgroups (gangs like MS-13) within cultures is not remotely a Muslim thing or Mexican thing, and certainly not a justification for being scared of Muslims. There have been quite a few American death cults, and we have a whole history of Irish and Italian immigrant gangs with bloody histories...

    As far as the US being "a society that doesn't really idolize political or religious leaders as a whole"...you can't be serious. The Founding Fathers, Washington, MLK. Kennedy, Reagan...on the other side, David Koresh, Charles Manson, Timothy McVeigh, the latter of which is heralded as a hero by very real threats inside the US right at this moment, and they aren't immigrants.

    Quote Originally Posted by AcerTempest View Post
    Ok, fair enough. I yield this point as proven through evidence.

    HOWEVER, I thought we were nut-riding Jordan Peterson on another thread.
    And I agree that such things are, or should be, obvious. BUT let's take a look at some less obvious cases:

    Most people in the world follow SOME form of religion. With that being said, let's assume for the moment that many if not most, leaders in most societies are to some degree or another religious. We already know how much our leaders influence our society. Look at the number of people influenced by President Obama, or even Trump. And that is in a society that doesn't really idolize political or religious leaders as a whole. We allow freedom and protest here. As much as some people complain about it, you don't HAVE to stand for the national anthem if you don't want to.

    Now, let's look at a culture and place where religious and political leaders are de-facto the same, and protest is met with violence. I.E. Many of the countries in the Middle East. How much MORE of an influence can those leaders have under those circumstances. I mean, you mentioned the Nazis. Look at how influential Hitler was, at least in part, because nobody was able to tell people any different.
    Now when those same leaders say things like this:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/world/09awlaki.html
    or this
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...Abshar_Abdalla

    What SHOULD our leaders think about groups that have been obviously influenced by these leaders?
    What is the appropriate response to groups that have no problem ignoring these universal ethics for anyone outside their group?

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    You know, you could have just said the cultural subgroup == "Muslim terrorist/Mexican gangmember" and the survival mechanism == "keep the Muslims/MS-13 out". It's not racist if you're that specific, see?

    The two leaders you posted couldn't be more different, but maybe I'm not reading you correctly...Ulil Abshar Abdalla is a conservative Islamic reformer, not a violent radical. Maybe you mean the issuers of the fatwa...either way, I still don't think you can argue the people who are interested in carrying out a death fatwa are greater than the 1/100,000 range.

    Generally, the existence of "death cults" or otherwise violent subgroups (gangs like MS-13) within cultures is not remotely a Muslim thing or Mexican thing, and certainly not a justification for being scared of Muslims. There have been quite a few American death cults, and we have a whole history of Irish and Italian immigrant gangs with bloody histories...

    As far as the US being "a society that doesn't really idolize political or religious leaders as a whole"...you can't be serious. The Founding Fathers, Washington, MLK. Kennedy, Reagan...on the other side, David Koresh, Charles Manson, Timothy McVeigh, the latter of which is heralded as a hero by very real threats inside the US right at this moment, and they aren't immigrants.
    I was referring to the death Fatwa's, death cults are bad no matter which group they belong to, my point being that we shouldn't allow them any more influence than they already have.
    As far as the Founding fathers etc... many of those people are certainly idolized as respected figures of history NOW, but during their lives they drew PLENTY of criticism providing counterpoints to almost everything they did in the US at least.
    As for people heralding Timothy McVeigh as a hero... you clearly are more aware of the crazy than I am. I live in Oklahoma. I watched that building blow up as a child as did many of my peers. He is certainly no hero HERE. But maybe there are stupid people everywhere.

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