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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin View Post
    You just have to take a look at any USA Today comments section to see that! :(

    I can't believe how repetitious and acrimonious people are.

    I like to tell myself that people who take the time to spam the USA Today comments section must be extremists with nothing better to do...
    Da, tovarish, da...
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    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    The trouble with this argument/perception is... Italians, Irish, British, Scottish, French, Dutch, Spanish....I could go on...or any European culture is always acceptable today in America because they're familiar, and the xenophobia comes in when you have to deal with other somewhat different-seeming cultures (even though almost all cultures share the same universal values). Italians, for example, didn't leave any of their culture behind. Their empire once dominated the globe, but nobody goes around claiming they are planning on doing it again in America...unlike something a lot of Muslim or Mexican refugees are accused of (they're bringing crime and Sharia!). But go back 100 years, and the Irish and Italians were the dirty immigrants nobody wanted...the cycle of hateful ignorance repeats.

    For some reason (maybe because bigotry is contagious especially online), a lot of misguided people in America have a great deal of resentment towards people from Latino or Muslim nations, but this isn't anything but racial and religious bigotry. No logical argument can support it, but they will try day and night on Twitter and Facebook to convince others that bigotry of that sort is perfectly logical for reason X or Y.

    Unfortunately, it's often based on nothing more than what other people look like, what they believe in, or how they speak to one another. Prejudice is prejudice.

    You can see this every day in America...

    ...someone looks Mexican or speaks Spanish, so they MUST be illegal immigrant (but they are a natural, bilingual citizen).

    ...That guy pumping gas wearing a turban looks Middle Eastern, so he MUST be Muslim (but he's Sikh).

    ...that guy praying on that rug must hate America, because Islam is "incompatible with Western values", something I've seen a lot since 9/11 (but that guy leads a peaceful religious community that dishes out soup to homeless people).

    The truth is people don't run from their cultures most of the time, unless we're talking extremes like ISIS or Nazi Germany...people run from persecution, war, famine, disease, and their shining beacon of hope for 200+ years has been the American border.
    I don't necessarily disagree with you, but would posit that part of our current problem with being the shining beacon of hope is that we have done our job a little too well. There are now, thanks in no small part to both the efforts of Americans specifically, and more generally the influence of America, a LOT of places in the world that can be shining beacons of hope for those running from other things. As a result of which, many in our country think that the next step is to be even MORE welcoming and even MORE open to greater differences in culture and values. The issue is, if people want that, it has to come on an individual basis and must come with time, integration, and education on both sides.

    For example, that guy who looks Mexican and speaks spanish? Maybe he is a natural bi-lingual citizen, but maybe he is the guy who was tagging "MS-13" on the walls of the car wash near where I lived. No way to know.

    The guy wearing a turban may be a Sikh or he could be Hindu or a Shia Muslim or even certain sects of Christianity. But if he also celebrates Ramadan, won't let his wife go out alone, and doesn't drink, well then that's a clue now isn't it.

    The guy praying on the rug could be leading a peaceful religious community that helps the homeless, but he could also be completely ok with someone in his group supporting Jihad against America. I have seen equal levels of insanity with Christian groups.

    It is impossible to accurately judge people from a snapshot of them, but if the only snap shots we see from people are negative, collectively our responses to those people as a group is going to be negative.
    The way to combat this is the same as it's always been: Time, patience, and give people more positive snapshots. Anything else just reinforces their pre-existing stereotypes and taken to a great extreme it just proves the worst bigots correct.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by AcerTempest View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree with you, but would posit that part of our current problem with being the shining beacon of hope is that we have done our job a little too well. There are now, thanks in no small part to both the efforts of Americans specifically, and more generally the influence of America, a LOT of places in the world that can be shining beacons of hope for those running from other things. As a result of which, many in our country think that the next step is to be even MORE welcoming and even MORE open to greater differences in culture and values. The issue is, if people want that, it has to come on an individual basis and must come with time, integration, and education on both sides.

    For example, that guy who looks Mexican and speaks spanish? Maybe he is a natural bi-lingual citizen, but maybe he is the guy who was tagging "MS-13" on the walls of the car wash near where I lived. No way to know.

    The guy wearing a turban may be a Sikh or he could be Hindu or a Shia Muslim or even certain sects of Christianity. But if he also celebrates Ramadan, won't let his wife go out alone, and doesn't drink, well then that's a clue now isn't it.

    The guy praying on the rug could be leading a peaceful religious community that helps the homeless, but he could also be completely ok with someone in his group supporting Jihad against America. I have seen equal levels of insanity with Christian groups.

    It is impossible to accurately judge people from a snapshot of them, but if the only snap shots we see from people are negative, collectively our responses to those people as a group is going to be negative.
    The way to combat this is the same as it's always been: Time, patience, and give people more positive snapshots. Anything else just reinforces their pre-existing stereotypes and taken to a great extreme it just proves the worst bigots correct.
    Is your problem with stereotyping then?
    Bigotry perpetuated through the media?

    If someone lives in fear, a decent person should examine if those fears are based in reality or not.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by lant3rn View Post
    Is your problem with stereotyping then?
    Bigotry perpetuated through the media?

    If someone lives in fear, a decent person should examine if those fears are based in reality or not.
    Stereotyping is a natural response to information overload. It is impossible to learn EVERYTHING about EVERYONE. I know, I tried. At best I can scratch the surface on most people.

    So, in order to understand how to react quickly to a person, we build pictures in our head of how they act and should react to certain stimuli. The closer those pictures are to our pictures of ourselves, the more likely we are to react positively, or at least to try communicating with someone.

    Let me make one thing perfectly clear: If I am a member of the native majority culture of a particular area, it is in no way incumbent on me to modify my picture of myself in my head to make this easier for an outsider/immigrant. It IS incumbent on the newcomer to modify themselves and their behavior as much as possible to fit within the group.
    The same thing applies to me when I travel to other countries or even outside of my home region of the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AcerTempest View Post
    Stereotyping is a natural response to information overload. It is impossible to learn EVERYTHING about EVERYONE. I know, I tried. At best I can scratch the surface on most people.

    So, in order to understand how to react quickly to a person, we build pictures in our head of how they act and should react to certain stimuli. The closer those pictures are to our pictures of ourselves, the more likely we are to react positively, or at least to try communicating with someone.

    Let me make one thing perfectly clear: If I am a member of the native majority culture of a particular area, it is in no way incumbent on me to modify my picture of myself in my head to make this easier for an outsider/immigrant. It IS incumbent on the newcomer to modify themselves and their behavior as much as possible to fit within the group.
    The same thing applies to me when I travel to other countries or even outside of my home region of the US.
    You don't have to modify the picture of yourself... in order to accept the humanity of another person.

    I have traveled extensively and there a lots a people you will overlook faux pas and help you acclimate to a new culture if you conduct yourself with respect, good faith, and good humour.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcerTempest View Post
    Stereotyping is a natural response to information overload. It is impossible to learn EVERYTHING about EVERYONE. I know, I tried. At best I can scratch the surface on most people.

    So, in order to understand how to react quickly to a person, we build pictures in our head of how they act and should react to certain stimuli. The closer those pictures are to our pictures of ourselves, the more likely we are to react positively, or at least to try communicating with someone.

    Let me make one thing perfectly clear: If I am a member of the native majority culture of a particular area, it is in no way incumbent on me to modify my picture of myself in my head to make this easier for an outsider/immigrant. It IS incumbent on the newcomer to modify themselves and their behavior as much as possible to fit within the group.
    The same thing applies to me when I travel to other countries or even outside of my home region of the US.
    Well said. Stereotypes exist because they are "generally," true. It's what somebody does with the information that the stereotype conveys that matters, and that counts for both the person being stereotyped and the person applying the stereotype. "Melting pot," only works if everyone is accomodating each other. Unfortunately, we have a lot of cultural cliques, especially in big cities where it's easier to stay sheltered in a social circle of people "just like you."

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by lant3rn View Post
    You don't have to modify the picture of yourself... in order to accept the humanity of another person.

    I have traveled extensively and there a lots a people you will overlook faux pas and help you acclimate to a new culture if you conduct yourself with respect, good faith, and good humour.
    But see, your last sentence proves my point. You, as the person who is traveling, have to conduct yourself with respect, good faith, and good humour. And accepting someone's humanity does not necessarily obligate me to treat them in any particular manner. Humans are a dangerous apex predator with violent tendencies and access to the most powerful weapons on the planet. Accepting someone's humanity is a perfectly good reason to eliminate them as a potential threat right off the bat.

    I may CHOOSE to act in a certain manner towards people because I feel comfortable, safe, and reasonably believe that it benefits me or society as a whole to do so, and I may be MORALLY obligated to act in a certain manner by my faith. But no rational sense of ethics nor any just legal code could or would OBLIGATE me to act in a certain way towards strangers.

    You cannot, and should not attempt, to legislate morality. The results are universally bad for all parties involved. If someone comes to my house, unless I offer them guestright, I have no obligation to them just because they are alive. If I CHOOSE to act otherwise, it is an act of charity on my part and, depending on how much of my personal resources I choose to use for it, or what things I care about that are at risk, it could be a great one.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by AcerTempest View Post
    Humans are a dangerous apex predator with violent tendencies and access to the most powerful weapons on the planet. Accepting someone's humanity is a perfectly good reason to eliminate them as a potential threat right off the bat.
    I find this to be a very pessimistic view of people if you being serious and not just playing devils advocate. If i viewed every person i had never met; through that lens, i would be too scared to even leave my home.

    The majority of people i have met don't fall into this category and the ones that due i find are easy to identify(through my own experience)...

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcerTempest View Post
    For example, that guy who looks Mexican and speaks spanish? Maybe he is a natural bi-lingual citizen, but maybe he is the guy who was tagging "MS-13" on the walls of the car wash near where I lived. No way to know.
    Probabilities favor the former, in any context. Most Spanish-speaking people in America are citizens. The issue is how many people jump to the wrong conclusion, which is a lot. Hence, "pre-judice".

    Quote Originally Posted by AcerTempest View Post
    The guy wearing a turban may be a Sikh or he could be Hindu or a Shia Muslim or even certain sects of Christianity. But if he also celebrates Ramadan, won't let his wife go out alone, and doesn't drink, well then that's a clue now isn't it.
    Change that to Christianity and add alcohol, you've the Turpin cult.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/539694...t-cult-leader/

    Quote Originally Posted by AcerTempest View Post
    The guy praying on the rug could be leading a peaceful religious community that helps the homeless, but he could also be completely ok with someone in his group supporting Jihad against America. I have seen equal levels of insanity with Christian groups.
    You haven't seen "equal levels". Most Christians and most Muslims are peaceful and law abiding and definitely don't support extremists. If they did, the whole world would be at war. That's why we call them "extremists".

    Quote Originally Posted by AcerTempest View Post
    It is impossible to accurately judge people from a snapshot of them, but if the only snap shots we see from people are negative, collectively our responses to those people as a group is going to be negative.
    The way to combat this is the same as it's always been: Time, patience, and give people more positive snapshots. Anything else just reinforces their pre-existing stereotypes and taken to a great extreme it just proves the worst bigots correct.
    That's the root problem: Judging a people (or religion or nation or ethnicity), versus a person (or persona..). The latter is possible given enough information. The former is just not logical given infinite information.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 1/24/2018 5:38pm at .

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Probabilities favor the former, in any context. Most Spanish-speaking people in America are citizens. The issue is how many people jump to the wrong conclusion, which is a lot. Hence, "pre-judice".



    Change that to Christianity and add alcohol, you've the Turpin cult.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/539694...t-cult-leader/



    You haven't seen "equal levels". Most Christians and most Muslims are peaceful and law abiding and definitely don't support extremists. If they did, the whole world would be at war. That's why we call them "extremists".



    That's the root problem: Judging a people (or religion or nation or ethnicity), versus a person (or persona..). The latter is possible given enough information. The former is just not logical given infinite information.

    1. Probability is something people are inherently bad at. Out internal mathematical systems favor Gamblers Fallacies every damn time.

    2. Still a cult of dangerous loons that I don't want to associate with or be around...

    3. You can't possibly know what I have seen, but I have responded armed to Westboro Baptist Church protests, so... there you go. But even without that, you can't deny there are crazy people everywhere. And let's look at your claim that the whole world would be at war. Name a part of the world that DOESN't have a war going on right now? Where people AREN'T dying every day due to some sort of political or resource driven conflict driven by their leaders?

    Now, you are basically correct in that most people of BOTH religions are peaceful, but notice what happens when religious law IS the state law? It doesn't end well for those countries in the modern world. We have separation of church and state for a reason.

    4. As to judging a people vs. judging a person, a people will ALWAYS be judged by the actions of it's most visible individuals. This is necessary as no one has infinite time to learn about ALL of the people's of the world and ALL of the different sub-cultures. We MUST have a shorthand way of doing this, or it would be impossible to accomplish that thing someone was on about earlier regarding "acknowledging the humanity of others". And of COURSE it's not logical. Decision making about peoples inclusion or exclusion at a social or interpersonal level is NEVER a logical decision. Human survival instincts are wired to prevent that bit of nonsense so you will always remember that just because something isn't dangerous NOW doesn't mean it won't be tomorrow. Once again, it takes time, patience, and education on both sides to overcome this. There are no short-cuts and trying to force one through social or political upheaval has historically ended in war, pain, and death for all involved.

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