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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    The key point here is that home 3D printing is not limited to plastic for a while now and these are not hobbyists...Defense Distributed has had a fully functional lab for developing 3D metal weapon printing for years now...the only thing holding them back from selling the devices and schematics for all of it is the US State Department.

    The Ghost Gun machines build a fully metal lower receiver. The printers can also make fully functional magazines..all the other parts are simpler and trivial to make. The rifled barrel has probably been perfected by Defense Distributed by now (since the proof of concept is 4 years old), but they're under federal bootheel so you won't hear about it from them...based on the last time they went public, and people lost their minds.

    The US government is extremely worried about this tech becoming cheaper and mainstream. I haven't seen them stomp down on entrepreneurs like this since they tried to shut down Phil Zimmerman's crypto as "munitions". Pretty soon the ability to print untraceable weapons at home will be so cheap and easy your kids could do it.

    I'm sure you made your own ammunition before...it's fun, right? This is the next generation of that.

    The $1,200 Machine That Lets Anyone Make a Metal Gun at Home: https://www.wired.com/2014/10/cody-wilson-ghost-gunner/

    You don’t know what you don’t know about barrel making.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post

    You need to get better aquatinted with printer technology and the materials out there. Yes, the technology on both fronts has exploded and will continue to do so. Today, it's still extremely expensive. It takes expensive machines to build at low tolerances. Home hobbyist machines are a joke. My $2500 machine sits in the box in a corner where it belongs. The real work is sent out to companies that have the machines capable of producing good prototypes and those still require secondary work.

    I'm sure you'll argue further but I do this type of work for a living.
    .

    Unable to edit-

    Replace low tolerance with high tolerance. Build resolution and design structure play heavily in the outcome of additive processes.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Sorry, I'm using "3D printer" to include these cheap, DIY robotic CNC mills, which the Ghost Gunner is, a 1 cubic foot personal CNC that spits out a metal AR-15 receiver. Keep in mind Defense Distributed has many, many other schematics, and the Ghost Gunner tech can mill practically anything it's programmed to, very quickly. If you can make a metal receiver in minutes, you can make anything else.

    Yeah, I know milling metal has been around for quite some time...but the ability to upload a schematic and spit out practically any metal or plastic part, including an AR-15 receiver, is pretty cutting edge.

    Like I said, even if you think it's not practical you'll have to explain why the US government went apeshit to make it go away, requiring a Supreme Court challenge by the creators of little black boxes that spit out AR-15 parts..metal or plastic.

    Remember, somebody said can't print AR-15s...but you can, and it's only getting cheaper and faster, hence the State Department smack down.
    No, you can’t print an entire fucking AR-15. That’s fucking ridiculous.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    So here's my bias, full disclosure. I had the luxury of attending a DEFCON Sky Talk (ie. fancypants unrecorded presentation you need to LINECON for at least an hour to get into, run by DC303 out of Denver, CO, for the uninitiated) about homemade gun smithing and the end of gun control.

    The presenter, whom I can't name (I forget names on purpose), was not only an attorney familiar with state gun laws, but also a DIY gunsmith and enthusiast.

    His presentation was entitled "The Genie is Out of the Bottle", and while most of the talk was related to a video demonstration of DIY shotgun, the preamble of his speech amounted to "gun control regulations are useless in the age of 3D printing".

    He was able to convince me pretty damn hard, man.

    Cody Wilson's tweet upon receiving the Cease and Desist from the US State Department in 2013 (4 years ago, ancient history!!)

    "#DEFCAD is going dark at the request of the SOS Department of Defense Trade Controls. Some shapes are more dangerous than others."


    Remind me sometime to tell you how my wife got me into a DC303 party in 2005. It involved a very intoxicated Rabbit at the Alexis Park trying to social engineering his way in, only to have his wife show up with an encrypted golden ticket. It ends up with her putting me to bed in the Venetian..the Zuul to my Vinz Clortho.
    A DIY gunsmith is not a fucking expert on gun making either. Those are who we refer to as “Bubba.”

    You can make an AR lower fairly easily. It’s also one of the easiest parts to make. The only reason homemade AR lowers get so much attention is because they’re the serialized part and technically, they’re “the gun” from a legal perspective.

    They are not, however, the hardest part to make. Not even close.

    You can have $50K worth of mills and lathes in your shop and still not be able to make a decent rifle barrel.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    No, you canít print an entire fucking AR-15. Thatís fucking ridiculous.
    Nor will you get any good results from desktop hobbyist CNC machines. For many reasons. Rigidity, Z axis capability, tool lengths required and screw back lash for starters. You can program around the backlash but it takes know how. Then you have to remove, position and locate exactly to perform other operations to areas not possible during the first run.

    This doesn't even take into account the coolant or other preferred methods to prevent galling. Cause aluminum.

  6. #26
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    The day will eventually come when a layperson can 3D print a safe, reliable, durable, and accurate centerfire firearm, but that day is fairly far down the road. Daniel Defense is now 3D printing cans using an additive sintering process, and it takes them about 7 days to print each can. They aren't the first to go that route, but they are the biggest name, as far as I am aware. Point being, we are quite a ways off from minimum viable product when it comes to printed guns, but it is probably coming in the next couple decades. It could come sooner if other manufacturing disciplines fully commit to similar processes, but it is going to be a long time before prices come down on what gets printed, let alone the machines that do the printing.

    Maybe someone will come up with another process that is faster/cheaper/more efficient, but I don't see how given current manufacturing capabilities. Firearms design typically relies on diverse materials, and that is a pain to deal with at home.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    A DIY gunsmith is not a fucking expert on gun making either. Those are who we refer to as “Bubba.”

    You can make an AR lower fairly easily. It’s also one of the easiest parts to make. The only reason homemade AR lowers get so much attention is because they’re the serialized part and technically, they’re “the gun” from a legal perspective.

    They are not, however, the hardest part to make. Not even close.

    You can have $50K worth of mills and lathes in your shop and still not be able to make a decent rifle barrel.
    Cause gun drills, concentricity, runout and very important rifling. There is a reason good barrels don't come cheap. You know this. Rabbit doesn't.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    Nor will you get any good results from desktop hobbyist CNC machines. For many reasons. Rigidity, Z axis capability, tool lengths required and screw back lash for starters. You can program around the backlash but it takes know how. Then you have to remove, position and locate exactly to perform other operations to areas not possible during the first run.

    This doesn't even take into account the coolant or other preferred methods to prevent galling. Cause aluminum.
    Yeah.

    Most people can’t appreciate how hard it is to bore a .22 caliber hole 20” deep in steel.

    The best barrel manufacturers on the planet can only manage to bore holes that are “straight-ish.” I’d be entertained as **** watching someone try to bang one out on a manual mill.

  9. #29
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    Looking at the process from afar, I think viable tabletop firearms manufacturing capability could be repurposed from technology developed to support colonization of space/other planets. The requirement to manufacture complex items from diverse materials exists there. Just my opinion though.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    If you want proof of concept for 3D printed rifled barrel, that was first engineered via 3D printer 4 years ago in Wisconsin. I'm sure DefDist has perfected it...but we'll have to wait for the Supreme Court to weigh in.

    http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...-rifled-barrel
    I'll let the professional machinist (Joe) and gunsmith (Devil) explain to you the difference between a plastic pistol and a AR-15 (or any other high-pressure/intensity rifle or pistol round), and the materials needed to contain high chamber pressures.

    **EDit**

    Thanks, guys, that should help explain some of the issues with "printing a whole AR-15", et al.
    Last edited by BKR; 10/05/2017 10:43am at .
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