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  1. #51
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by resonatemoore View Post
    Are the moves banned from competition because that's how the sport works, example no kicks in boxing, or are the moves banned from competition because they often leave the opponent seriously injured, example no punching in the back of the head in boxing, no headbutts, no groin strikes.

    What techniques are banned in MMA competition that put particular martial arts techniques in question? I'm trying to help people find out what disciplines and techniques work best in MMA, not street fights or combat situations.
    Not to rain on you parade, however:
    The reason I asked about some sort of standard or normal MMA syllabus (and apparently there is/are), is that answers to your questions would be found in such syllabi of successful MMA training camps/trainers.
    In fact, you train MMA, and apparently train MMA athletes.
    So it seems to me you would already know the answers.

    You already stated that at AKA, subject matter experts teach/coach in their area of expertise (which makes total sense, of course). Hasn't the wheat already been separated from the chaff, more or less ?

    And what is your target audience for your list of technical criteria for "techniques" ? Did I miss that?

    Don't we already know what "techniques" work in MMA ?
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    You clearly don't understand how the addition of striking changes the grappling game in MMA. Inside ties, hands down the most effective set up in wrestling for attack, completely out when strikes are involved. I could go on, or you could look up some of Mark Schultz's commentary on the subject. Olympic gold medalist wrestler, turned MMA fighter, turned Pedro Sauer black belt may have some insights into the matter.
    That's kinda what I was trying to get at with my rule-set commentary. I'm not trained in striking, only grappling, and really, a narrow range of grappling (Judo and BJJ(a lot less BJJ than Judo, too), so don't want to make any more stupid comments than necessary.

    One thing that did cross my mind is that adding in striking and submissions would perhaps limit high level wrestlers, to some degree on their take-down options. Getting a take-down but giving up your back is not a good option where submissions are allowed. I know that much from mixing Judo with BJJ...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by resonatemoore View Post
    I'm trying to help people find out what disciplines and techniques work best in MMA, not street fights or combat situations.
    I missed that detail. Proceed.
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  4. #54
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    That's kinda what I was trying to get at with my rule-set commentary. I'm not trained in striking, only grappling, and really, a narrow range of grappling (Judo and BJJ(a lot less BJJ than Judo, too), so don't want to make any more stupid comments than necessary.

    One thing that did cross my mind is that adding in striking and submissions would perhaps limit high level wrestlers, to some degree on their take-down options. Getting a take-down but giving up your back is not a good option where submissions are allowed. I know that much from mixing Judo with BJJ...
    Inside tie puts you in good range and position for uppercuts and knees to the chin(aka knockout target).

    While in wrestling it loads you up with offensive options, arm drags, duck unders, singles, doubles, just about any freestyle take down can be easily executed from there, with minimal ability of your opponent to defend. It is essentially the same has have 2 solid grips in Judo while denying your opponent any.
    Don't rely on theory if your life is at stake.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Inside tie puts you in good range and position for uppercuts and knees to the chin(aka knockout target).

    While in wrestling it loads you up with offensive options, arm drags, duck unders, singles, doubles, just about any freestyle take down can be easily executed from there, with minimal ability of your opponent to defend. It is essentially the same has have 2 solid grips in Judo while denying your opponent any.
    Got it, I had to look up a photo. Essentially inside lapel grip with sleeve control, but no jacket.

    It seems to me that getting takedowns in MMA is getting less and less common. I'm not really a fan, though, so can't say anything quantitative. The combo of sweaty body and no jacket, plus submissions and striking, seems to limit takedown options, tilting in favor of takedown defense and striking.

    However, I imagine that good footwork, angling, etc, works as usual no matter what.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

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  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    You clearly don't understand how the addition of striking changes the grappling game in MMA. Inside ties, hands down the most effective set up in wrestling for attack, completely out when strikes are involved. I could go on, or you could look up some of Mark Schultz's commentary on the subject. Olympic gold medalist wrestler, turned MMA fighter, turned Pedro Sauer black belt may have some insights into the matter.
    I hear what you're saying, techniques from pure striking arts need to be adapted for MMA, and just because it works well in boxing or thai, doesn't necessarily mean that it's good for MMA.

    I'm just saying, I'd rather learn how to punch from a boxer and fit that technique to my style in MMA. Don't ask an MMA guy how to punch, especially if his original discipline was grappling! (unless that MMA guy is GSP, McGregor, Silva, etc.)

    Nowhere do I say that takedowns don't affect the way you stand, move, and throw punches. I'm saying that you want to use the most effective techniques from the most relevant disciplines. Obviously, these techniques and disciplines have to be understood for what they are. They have to be adapted to MMA and the individual, even adapted to the opponent that the individual is facing.

    I'm all for formlessness and no technique being your technique and all, but if I'm trying to point clueless people to disciplines of martial arts that work best in MMA, I'm going to tell the to practice the techniques that work best in MMA fights, but learn them from a master of that art. Don't go to an "MMA" class and learn everything from one person! (unless that one person is Greg Jackson, Matt Thornton, Bruce Lee, etc.)

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by resonatemoore View Post
    I hear what you're saying, techniques from pure striking arts need to be adapted for MMA, and just because it works well in boxing or thai, doesn't necessarily mean that it's good for MMA.

    I'm just saying, I'd rather learn how to punch from a boxer and fit that technique to my style in MMA. Don't ask an MMA guy how to punch, especially if his original discipline was grappling! (unless that MMA guy is GSP, McGregor, Silva, etc.)

    Nowhere do I say that takedowns don't affect the way you stand, move, and throw punches. I'm saying that you want to use the most effective techniques from the most relevant disciplines. Obviously, these techniques and disciplines have to be understood for what they are. They have to be adapted to MMA and the individual, even adapted to the opponent that the individual is facing.

    I'm all for formlessness and no technique being your technique and all, but if I'm trying to point clueless people to disciplines of martial arts that work best in MMA, I'm going to tell the to practice the techniques that work best in MMA fights, but learn them from a master of that art. Don't go to an "MMA" class and learn everything from one person! (unless that one person is Greg Jackson, Matt Thornton, Bruce Lee, etc.)
    Wouldn't it be faster to see what are the most common martial arts that show up in the background of succesful MMA fighters?
    For example, suppose that I say that a punch executed in such an such way, tipical of Nippon Kempo, is great for MMA, you would probably disbelieve me.
    Why? Because there aren't many MMA pratictioners who come from Nippon Kempo, so the idea that that specific kind of punch works might well be a brainfart of mine.
    So in the end the only thing you can do is to check what martial arts did people who had success at MMA do.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Not to rain on you parade, however:
    The reason I asked about some sort of standard or normal MMA syllabus (and apparently there is/are), is that answers to your questions would be found in such syllabi of successful MMA training camps/trainers.
    In fact, you train MMA, and apparently train MMA athletes.
    So it seems to me you would already know the answers.

    You already stated that at AKA, subject matter experts teach/coach in their area of expertise (which makes total sense, of course). Hasn't the wheat already been separated from the chaff, more or less ?

    And what is your target audience for your list of technical criteria for "techniques" ? Did I miss that?

    Don't we already know what "techniques" work in MMA ?
    Yes, we already know what worked. We don't know what will work, unless we try it, because MMA is still evolving. We don't know exactly what will work, but if we know what makes the techniques work, we can break down any technique and make some sort of assumption as to if it's worth a ****.

    I'm not going to tell someone that a technique will never work, but I can tell someone that there are certain elements to effective technique, and therefore, some techniques are more likely to work. Although there are too many distracting elements that ultimately determine the success of a technique, you can still explain the elements that cause a technique to work. When you see the elements at work, you can see WHY it works. Now, a person can discern a technique that is capable because it exhibits several of the essential elements to effective technique.

    When the essential elements to effective technique are identified, you can see why, when, and how to apply those techniques. You can also see what moves compliment each other, so you can make new and interesting combinations.

    MMA is still changing drastically, but the apparatus or the weapons (human bodies) are still the same, but every one is different. You learn to perform technique better, by understanding the forces created by this body. Once you understand the body and how it creates these forces, you can look at any technique combination, and make an educated guess into it's effectiveness.

    My target audience is the MMA beginner. I'm creating this system, so that I can restate, in my own words, what all of the other great MMA trainers have already said. I see particular patterns of movement and neuromuscular activation that are very beneficial in MMA and in functional training. As a kinesiologist, trainer, and fighter, I want to teach beginners what I have learned, so that they can have a better idea about what is bullshido and what isn't.

    I'm engaging with you animals so that I can get all of my bases covered. I'm realizing that a lot of my assumptions about proper technique require quite a few disclaimers and exceptions to the rules.

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by BJMills View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a general practical technique guide. And I think it could be fairly useful. It's just a difficult subject because there are so many variables.

    Kind of on topic, one thing I like about the judo and BJJ guys I train with, they tend to look at things through the lens of high percentage/low percentage instead of effective/ineffective...

    With the caveat that garbage is dismissed as garbage.

    So, to take the most generic example, it's not that wrist locks are ineffective, but against resisting opponents they tend to be low percentage.

    They have worked under BJJ rules, so you can't dismiss them completely...

    But as far as time spent working on something they're probably at the very bottom of my list.
    I believe that you can identify the most important and significant variables, and then center your technique and style on those elements. View the techniques in their pure setting, like a punch technique in a boxing match, and you remove some of the variables, exposing the elements that cause the technique to work in the first place.

    A technique can be effective or it can work in all kinds of settings in MMA and can work on people that aren't skilled, fatigued, injured, etc. However, if a wrist lock works on Marcus Buchecha in a no-gi match, at the very least, you can recognize it as a decently effective technique. The core elements that enable that move to work so well should be identifiable, at least from an instructors point of view.

    Otherwise, we're going to be doing exactly what we see in competition, repeating moves that we know work, not understanding why they work. I'm trying to help the beginner learn faster, by helping them to see wrist locks and knee bars for what they are, by showing them the elements that allow any technique to work. This way, they can think for themselves, and can truly learn and understand techniques, intead of just mimicking and memorizing what we see.

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    Wouldn't it be faster to see what are the most common martial arts that show up in the background of successful MMA fighters?
    For example, suppose that I say that a punch executed in such way, typical of Nippon Kempo, is great for MMA, you would probably disbelieve me.
    Why? Because there aren't many MMA pratictioners who come from Nippon Kempo, so the idea that that specific kind of punch works might well be a brainfart of mine.
    So in the end the only thing you can do is to check what martial arts did people who had success at MMA do.
    Yes, I think it's important to keep an open mind for all the less popular martial arts. I value the versatility and relevance of hybrid martial arts. I recommend that people practice these arts IF there is an instructor or resource to learn from. If a person is looking for a discipline to train, they have to have a gym, a trainer, and training partners to practice their techniques. If you can't find a Nippon Kempo instructor and training partners that have already trained several high level fighters, you're taking your chances. However, if you can find a boxing trainer that has trained several champions, or has at least some experience in competition, you're better off learning from him (in most cases), and adapting your technique to fit your style.

    In the end, you have to absorb what is useful and reject what is useless. Knowing why things are useful and useless helps you to absorb more and refine faster.

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