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  1. #61

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    ah, finally retrieved it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNADXZRi2zU

    Kashima shinden jikishinkage ryu has a kata that is performed and demonstrated with sharp blades. Clear edge on edge as well.

  2. #62
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moenstah View Post
    re: kid video

    1) he's doing everything left handed? what the hell? I have seen toooo tooo many boring iaido demo's not to know that it's always done righthanded (I am a lefty)
    2 ) sheathing of the blade completely wrong and fucked up
    2) stance is ridiculous and wrong for any JSA
    The other vids: all bullshit as well. You can already tell by their exaggerated krotty-demo movements. The idiotic way they fold their hakama back. The first kid fucked up the way how to tie the sageo in the obi, as a result, the saya started slipping through his obi.
    All of them: twirling, not cutting.
    And for the love of god: who would do a jumping front kick if he has a sword? WHY? Your reach is longer with the sword anyway?


    to OP: if interested in Japanese sword arts, find something that is dedicated to it, and not something that does it to the side like karate.
    if interested in the history of karate: feel free to look into that, but don't waste your time with this tripe.
    Yeah, I was like "that looks odd" besides the whole XMA flavor...



    Oh, even better !


    I know that koryu kata have all sorts of extraneous movements and screaming and yelling...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by AcerTempest View Post
    The guy who taught you longsword is correct, or at least shares the same reality as me.
    However, I must disagree with your assertion that they are "used pretty differently". I would say that modern Kendo teaches a VERY different use of the katana, but if you look at the traditional kenjutsu ryu and try to re-create that with sparring and good gear, you get something much closer to the way the longsword was used. There are a number of articles around the internet on this, but I am having trouble producing one that is not SUPER partisan to one weapon at the moment and I am trying to avoid this becoming a "longsword vs katana" thread.
    The key defensive movements I leaned against downward cuts was to intercept it with the strong/crossguard as you thrust high or counter with the false edge, rather than block then counter. I don't see this as much in katana demos- the simultaneous thrust or false edge attacks. They seem to defend then switch to counter. But I'm not well versed in JMA.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    The key defensive movements I leaned against downward cuts was to intercept it with the strong/crossguard as you thrust high or counter with the false edge, rather than block then counter. I don't see this as much in katana demos- the simultaneous thrust or false edge attacks. They seem to defend then switch to counter. But I'm not well versed in JMA.
    And this is where the 'sportification' of it comes in. Actually, in the older Japanese sword arts, you do see defenses that are simultaneous with attacks. Now, they don't do as much false edge parrying, as the design of the weapon makes this less efficient, but that has a lot to do with the curve. You will note there are not a lot of false edge parries in british military saber either. Some, but not many.
    The simultaneous defense that is most commonly taught with the katana is the evade and counter, where you will use footwork and measure to evade your opponents attack and then counter in the same or immediately following tempo.
    In the Lichtenaur tradition, this is called a nachreisen, or following-after.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    The key defensive movements I leaned against downward cuts was to intercept it with the strong/crossguard as you thrust high or counter with the false edge, rather than block then counter. I don't see this as much in katana demos- the simultaneous thrust or false edge attacks. They seem to defend then switch to counter. But I'm not well versed in JMA.
    Again with my memories of sport fencing, but it seems to me that the movement you describe is similar to what I called "filo" (in italian, I don't know the english term, however it can be translated more or less as "edge").
    "Filo" is when you first engage your opponent's blade from a position of strenght (strong part of the blade VS weak part of the blade), then you slide on it, thrusting the opponent while you keep his weapon engaged.

    http://www.accademianazionalescherma...logia/filo.htm

    This can be done as a direct attack (as in the examples on the site I linked), but very often is a parry and then counterattack with "filo".
    But to do this you need to use the crossguard or your opponent could disengage very easily, so I don't think this would work well with a katana, since the tsuba is very small.

  6. #66
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moenstah View Post
    oh and regarding edge on edge blocking: apparently Katori shinto ryu, maniwa nen ryu, hyoho niten ichi ryu and kashima shinto ryu don't seem to have a problem with it.

    And who cares if his blade gets damaged, someone is trying to cut you up with a really big razor, and the sword is just a sidearm in the first place!
    That's kind of what I was thinking too.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    Again with my memories of sport fencing, but it seems to me that the movement you describe is similar to what I called "filo" (in italian, I don't know the english term, however it can be translated more or less as "edge").
    "Filo" is when you first engage your opponent's blade from a position of strenght (strong part of the blade VS weak part of the blade), then you slide on it, thrusting the opponent while you keep his weapon engaged.

    http://www.accademianazionalescherma...logia/filo.htm

    This can be done as a direct attack (as in the examples on the site I linked), but very often is a parry and then counterattack with "filo".
    But to do this you need to use the crossguard or your opponent could disengage very easily, so I don't think this would work well with a katana, since the tsuba is very small.
    Well, you can actually do filo di terza giusta misura using the blad of the weapon as well in JMA, it doesn't require the guard/tsuba per se.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    That's kind of what I was thinking too.
    You're right, but don't tell the LARP-ers, XMA people. ;-)


    Quote Originally Posted by AcerTempest View Post
    (...) The simultaneous defense that is most commonly taught with the katana is the evade and counter, where you will use footwork and measure to evade your opponents attack and then counter in the same or immediately following tempo.
    In the Lichtenaur tradition, this is called a nachreisen, or following-after.
    Yeah, but let's not forget that in JMA, concepts like "Sen no Sen", "Sen Sen no Sen" are preferred to 'sec' defense. Cutting before the opponent cuts, or cutting through the cut/technique of your opponent is to be preferred (I know, I know, the world is not an ideal place, and defense is necessary and more often the situation than one would wish for).
    Last edited by Moenstah; 9/19/2017 10:29am at . Reason: my Italian spelling is going downhill

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moenstah View Post
    Yeah, but let's not forget that in JMA, concepts like "Sen no Sen", "Sen Sen no Sen" are preferred to 'sec' defense. Cutting before the opponent cuts, or cutting through the cut/technique of your opponent is to be preferred (I know, I know, the world is not an ideal place, and defense is necessary and more often the situation than one would wish for).
    Ehh, I forget nothing. Sen no Sen is called seizing the Vor in German. Sen Sen no Sen is most commonly taught as "strike to cover". These are VERY important concepts in sword work, but they won't keep you from getting dead if you don't also know how to parry at need.

  9. #69

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    Well I didn't think you really forgot it, just a shitty turn of phrase I used to underline something some people might not be sufficiently aware of. Never practiced HEMA stuff, only JSA. What's that 'strike to cover' in German?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moenstah View Post
    ah, finally retrieved it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNADXZRi2zU

    Kashima shinden jikishinkage ryu has a kata that is performed and demonstrated with sharp blades. Clear edge on edge as well.
    And sword twirling at 1:04....
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

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