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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pship Destroyer View Post
    Being Spanish doesn't really mean **** when it comes to discussing liberty or democracy.

    The urge to be as tiny as you can be, nation wise, is fucked up. What the hell is wrong with being part of Espana, anyway?

    The only people fighting for things like secession are political opportunists like Rick Perry, Nigel Farage, or whoever the idiots in Catalonia are.

    Lefty morons.
    So this is your genius level analysis of the situation based on knowing none of the facts, issues or players involved? Nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    So this is your genius level analysis of the situation based on knowing none of the facts, issues or players involved? Nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    So this is your genius level analysis of the situation based on knowing none of the facts, issues or players involved? Nice.
    Was I supposed to post genius level? Damn Mike...tall order, but ok, give me more time...sovereignty, secession, democratic referendum, civil disobedience...got it.

    In the meantime, we be able to agree that the idea only Spaniards can get this thread, or only Britons really get Brexit, is dumb and naive in the same sense as Nigel Farage or Rick Perry are dumb and naive.

    I'll do better next time, but any kid with a basic civics education should get this thread, and understand Catalonia's dumb and naive plan.

    Did I leave out illegal? No, DCS covered that part.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pship Destroyer View Post
    Was I supposed to post genius level? Damn Mike...tall order, but ok, give me more time...sovereignty, secession, democratic referendum, civil disobedience...got it.

    In the meantime, we be able to agree that the idea only Spaniards can get this thread, or only Britons really get Brexit, is dumb and naive in the same sense as Nigel Farage or Rick Perry are dumb and naive.

    I'll do better next time, but any kid with a basic civics education should get this thread, and understand Catalonia's dumb and naive plan.

    Did I leave out illegal? No, DCS covered that part.
    Good thing Catalonia doen't have oil, elsewise B-52s would be bombing the **** out of Madrid right now in defense of their right to self determination.

    Oh and Brexit made a lot of sense to me, as the various treaty obligations combined with British common law were essentially bankrupting the UK and its NHS. At least that was the argument that I was hearing from my British friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Good thing Catalonia doen't have oil, elsewise B-52s would be bombing the **** out of Madrid right now in defense of their right to self determination.

    Oh and Brexit made a lot of sense to me, as the various treaty obligations combined with British common law were essentially bankrupting the UK and its NHS. At least that was the argument that I was hearing from my British friends.
    In my opinion, while at least some brexiters held these opinion about NHS, they were (and are) wrong. Brexit already happened in legal terms, so we will see.
    The catalans would instead gain economically from independence, although being a leftist I don't like the idea of gaining because you don't share your taxes with poorer regions.

    The problem is that other countries in the EU might not want to recognize Catalunia because this would legitimize other separatist parties in other places.

    @P-ship: evidently when you question the sovereignity of the state it's allways illegal. States are not eternal things, and illegal is not the same as immoral.

    Since this thread is boring if no one opens with a strong opinion:

    Booho catalans you are so mean! You are just trying to pay less taxes to help poorer regions, and you just pretend to have deep historical and cultural reasons!

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    In my opinion, while at least some brexiters held these opinion about NHS, they were (and are) wrong. Brexit already happened in legal terms, so we will see.
    The catalans would instead gain economically from independence, although being a leftist I don't like the idea of gaining because you don't share your taxes with poorer regions.

    The problem is that other countries in the EU might not want to recognize Catalunia because this would legitimize other separatist parties in other places.

    @P-ship: evidently when you question the sovereignity of the state it's allways illegal. States are not eternal things, and illegal is not the same as immoral.

    Since this thread is boring if no one opens with a strong opinion:

    Booho catalans you are so mean! You are just trying to pay less taxes to help poorer regions, and you just pretend to have deep historical and cultural reasons!
    So you are saying that Catalonia ought to stay a part of Spain out of altruism and the desire to help poorer regions by paying more tax money and giving it to them. Is this where I channel Rand Paul and say that socialism equals slavery?

    Well as I don't agree with Rand Paul I will leave that to the side. I will say that humans by nature are not altruistic, and so they often expect to see some overall societal benefit for their taxation. The US Revolution was fought over this, and Donald Trump became President over this(more or less). So the question is, at least in my mind, how exactly does Catalonia feel that Spain hasn't been giving adequate concern to its interests to the point where it feels that it would be better as a stand alone, then part of a larger whole? From what I can tell, Catalonia doesn't have sufficient voter desire to pass an actual popular referendum.

    However I would like to know the actual issues and concerns from both sides.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    So you are saying that Catalonia ought to stay a part of Spain out of altruism and the desire to help poorer regions by paying more tax money and giving it to them.
    I'm not speaking of altruism. I think that a big part of the role of the state in a capitalist society is to redistribute income from rich to poor.
    If it's ok to redistribute from a rich guy in Barcelona to a poor guy in Barcelona, then it's also ok from a rich guy in Barcelona to a poor guy in Madrid.
    I think it is a role of the state precisely because the state can enforce this, I don't expect this to happen because of altruism: if people were all that altruistic there would be no purpose in socialism.

  7. #37
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    I'm not speaking of altruism. I think that a big part of the role of the state in a capitalist society is to redistribute income from rich to poor.
    If it's ok to redistribute from a rich guy in Barcelona to a poor guy in Barcelona, then it's also ok from a rich guy in Barcelona to a poor guy in Madrid.
    I think it is a role of the state precisely because the state can enforce this, I don't expect this to happen because of altruism: if people were all that altruistic there would be no purpose in socialism.
    Redistribution of wealth is a socialist, not capitalist ideal. One of the central characteristics to capitalism is capital accumulation. To put it in the terms of a Reagan era bumper sticker, "He dies with the most toys wins." One of the central characteristics of socialism however is "From each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution. Emphasis on profit being distributed among the society or workforce to complement individual wages/salaries."

    What you are describing is not a capitalist state at all, but rather a socialist one.

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    Here is a website with some pro and cons on catalunian independence:

    http://www.debatingeurope.eu/focus/i...nce-catalonia/

    And here another pro independence post:

    https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Catalan...ede-from-Spain

    The pro reasons are:


    1) cultural differences from other Spaniards;
    2) money flows out from Catalunia to other Spanish regions at the rate of 8% of GDP* ;
    3) random historical events dating back since 1000 years ago to, most recently, Francisco Franco;
    4) Catalans voted for independence.

    It is my opinion that argument 3 is bunk, and argument 1 is irrelevant, and both are used to give a veneer of respectability to argument 2, that is the actual crux of the problem. Point 4 isn't really an argument for independence by itself.

    *wowzers! Is this number true? - wait - I checked the data for Italy and here the story is even more extreme with Lombardy giving out 17% of its GDP to other regions (mostly to the south).
    http://www.wikispesa.it/Residuo_Fiscale_Regioni
    (in italian)

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Redistribution of wealth is a socialist, not capitalist ideal. One of the central characteristics to capitalism is capital accumulation. To put it in the terms of a Reagan era bumper sticker, "He dies with the most toys wins." One of the central characteristics of socialism however is "From each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution. Emphasis on profit being distributed among the society or workforce to complement individual wages/salaries."

    What you are describing is not a capitalist state at all, but rather a socialist one.
    Yeah but, already before WW1, the difference in income inside capitalist countries became so big that the government had to step in and redistribute a bit.
    So today we live in a system where the economy by itself pushes towards capital accumulations and big differences in income, with the state that tries to put a limit to this through taxes an other means (like minimum wage law and other pro worker laws).
    This redistribution is one of the central functions of the state today, even though governments are rolling back on this since the 80s, in part because this redistributive role of the state is questioned.

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    double post

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