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  1. #21

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    You guys got way too much time on your hands.

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    DCS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pship Destroyer View Post
    Why are you quoting Sir William of Ockham in Latin, Michael?

    I'm sure you have a solid source suggesting William ever uttered or recorded such a phrase.
    Probabilities are on Michael's side.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    You actually want me to believe that a 14th Century Franciscan Monk didn't use and speak Latin? The middle ages RCC are pretty much the only people that spoke Latin. I mean after the Battle of Corinth, and the absorption of Greece into the Roman Empire, every self respecting Roman spoke Greek, and used Latin only for official discourse and records. The RCC kept Latin alive, and it's priests and monks all knew and were able to speak Latin. Heck, Jesuits still use it. Oh, and in case you didn't realize it, all of William of Ockham's books were written in Latin. So you getting your pants all in a twist over a Latin quotation, of a primary principle of William of Ockham's philosophy, especially a principle that William of Ockham quoted so often that, despite it having been around long before him, became known for him.
    While I agree that in the middle ages the RCC (and intellectuals) were the ones that kept latin "alive", and that most likely Occam was fluent in latin, as far as I know during the roman empire the western part of the empire kept latin as its main language (hence the many neolatin languages in western Europe), while the eastern part kept greek.

    In fact knowledge of greek and greek authors was largely lost in the early middle ages in western Europe, and was retrieved after the fall of Byzanthium when various scholars from Byzanthium went to western Europe.

    /pedant

  4. #24
    Bneterasedmynam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    While I agree that in the middle ages the RCC (and intellectuals) were the ones that kept latin "alive", and that most likely Occam was fluent in latin, as far as I know during the roman empire the western part of the empire kept latin as its main language (hence the many neolatin languages in western Europe), while the eastern part kept greek.

    In fact knowledge of greek and greek authors was largely lost in the early middle ages in western Europe, and was retrieved after the fall of Byzanthium when various scholars from Byzanthium went to western Europe.

    /pedant

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    I love a good nerdfest!
    "I want to have goblins about me, for I am courageous. The courage which scares away ghosts, creates for itself goblins--it wants to laugh." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

    Quote Originally Posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    If you are getting scared and short of breathe remind/tell yourself ,"There's no where else in the whole world I choose to be tonight."

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    While I agree that in the middle ages the RCC (and intellectuals) were the ones that kept latin "alive", and that most likely Occam was fluent in latin, as far as I know during the roman empire the western part of the empire kept latin as its main language (hence the many neolatin languages in western Europe), while the eastern part kept greek.

    In fact knowledge of greek and greek authors was largely lost in the early middle ages in western Europe, and was retrieved after the fall of Byzanthium when various scholars from Byzanthium went to western Europe.

    /pedant
    In Late Empire, you are probably right. I could get into all the reasons why, but I'll leave that out for now.

    Occam however wasn't probably fluent Latin, he was definitely fluent in Latin. Here is his bibliography... All written in Latin.

    Summa logicae (Sum of Logic) (c. 1323, OP 1).
    Expositionis in Libros artis logicae prooemium, 1321–24, OP 2).
    Expositio in librum Porphyrii de Praedicabilibus, 1321–24, OP 2).
    Expositio in librum Praedicamentorum Aristotelis, 1321–24, OP 2).
    Expositio in librum in librum Perihermenias Aristotelis, 1321–24, OP 2).
    Tractatus de praedestinatione et de prescientia dei respectu futurorum contingentium (Treatise on Predestination and God’s Foreknowledge with respect to Future Contingents, 1322–24, OP 2).
    Expositio super libros Elenchorum (Exposition of Aristotle’s Sophistic refutations, 1322–24, OP 3).
    Expositio in libros Physicorum Aristotelis. Prologus et Libri I-III (Exposition of Aristole’s Physics) (1322–24, OP 4).
    Expositio in libros Physicorum Aristotelis. Prologus et Libri IV-VIII (Exposition of Aristole’s Physics) (1322–24, OP 5).
    Brevis summa libri Physicorum (Brief Summa of the Physics, 1322–23, OP 6).
    Summula philosophiae naturalis (Little Summa of Natural Philosophy, 1319–21, OP 6).
    Quaestiones in libros Physicorum Aristotelis (Questions on Aristotle’s Books of the Physics, before 1324, OP 6).
    In libros Sententiarum (Commentary on the Sentences of Peter Lombard).
    Book I (Ordinatio) completed shortly after July 1318 (OT 1-4).
    Books II–IV (Reportatio) 1317-18 (transcription of the lectures; OT 5-7).
    Quaestiones variae (OT 8).
    Quodlibeta septem (before 1327), (OT 9).
    Tractatus de quantitate (1323–24. OT 10).
    Tractatus de corpore Christi (1323–24, OT 10).
    Opus nonaginta dierum (1332–34).
    Epistola ad fratres minores (1334).
    Dialogus (before 1335).
    Tractatus contra Johannem [XXII] (1335).
    Tractatus contra benedictum [XII] (1337–38).
    Octo quaestiones de potestate papae (1340–41).
    Consultatio de causa matrimoniali (1341–42).
    Breviloquium (1341–42).
    De imperatorum et pontifcum potestate [also known as 'Defensorium'] (1346–47).

    You don't write that much in Latin and not know Latin. While I haven't scoured every one of his writings in the original Latin to figure out if and precisely how Ockham's razor was originally phrased. I have no doubt that it was written in at least one of these works, and most likely many of them as he used the principle so much that it was named for him. Until I can see a definite source saying that this whole Ockham's razor thing is total BS, I'm going to go with the folks at Encyclopedia Brittannica.

  7. #27
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    Breviloquium (1341–42)

    This one sounds apropos of bullshido.net at times.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

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  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    You actually want me to believe that a 14th Century Franciscan Monk didn't use and speak Latin? The middle ages RCC are pretty much the only people that spoke Latin. I mean after the Battle of Corinth, and the absorption of Greece into the Roman Empire, every self respecting Roman spoke Greek, and used Latin only for official discourse and records. The RCC kept Latin alive, and it's priests and monks all knew and were able to speak Latin. Heck, Jesuits still use it. Oh, and in case you didn't realize it, all of William of Ockham's books were written in Latin. So you getting your pants all in a twist over a Latin quotation, of a primary principle of William of Ockham's philosophy, especially a principle that William of Ockham quoted so often that, despite it having been around long before him, became known for him.
    They spoke English, for the most part. William...English...anyway. He might have written Latin now and then, but I'd love to see your source for any quotation.

    If he quoted it SO OFTEN, please be so kind as to quote me William of Ockham saying anything like Phrost declared he stated (in the original Latin). The book and date, please.

    I'll save you the time: they all belong to a different person. Sir William never wrote any such thing, and while he promoted the concept, is mistakenly associated with a COMMON philosophical devices going back well before him.

    If you're going to discuss "Ockham's Razor" online, you should at least get it right. Now I'd like to see proof of this claim: "all of William of Ockham's books were written in Latin"
    Last edited by Pship Destroyer; 8/05/2017 12:55am at .

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    You don't write that much in Latin and not know Latin. While I haven't scoured every one of his writings in the original Latin to figure out if and precisely how Ockham's razor was originally phrased. I have no doubt that it was written in at least one of these works, and most likely many of them as he used the principle so much that it was named for him. Until I can see a definite source saying that this whole Ockham's razor thing is total BS, I'm going to go with the folks at Encyclopedia Brittannica.
    You don't know Latin, and you haven't scoured his writings because other scholars did it before you. "Originally phrased" is a problem you can't solve using William of Ockham.

    There is no such phrase, uttered by Ockham, remotely close to what's been claimed, Michael. In fact, you're confusing the fact that one person (Puncius) uttered these Latin phrases being cited, and another (Ockham, a decidedly English name) did not but was related to the same school of philosophy and who is today associated with the device he used so well, BUT did not utter the phrases being misattributed to him.

    "Definite source"? You've got it backwards. You start with the source and then make a conclusion such as Phrost's. Avoiding the true history of the language and device is absurdism.

    Copying quotes off the Internet is fraught with the peril of promoting bullshit.

    Here, Phrost claims that William of Ockham said this in Latin in a book once, yet there's no source Michael or anyone else can provide, making it bullshit.

    This is fake news:
    William of Ockham lived in the 14th century, and in the original Latin, he stated:

    “Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate.”
    Last edited by Pship Destroyer; 8/05/2017 1:22am at .

  10. #30

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    I forgot to mention...the misattributed quotes you are defending (either one of them) are nowhere to be found in any of the 28 works you cited.

    Fake news, dude.

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