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  1. #41
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
    I know I just though I would toss out that BS before someone tries to with seriousness.

    As was pointed out the average soldier really doesn't need strong hand2hand stuff. I would assume they (military) use a generic basic "build aggression hit with the pointy end" system for the average soldier or missile technician. Getting your average person up to the levels shown in the videos takes many months of serious training. Not exactly what you want to be spending your military budget on. So I would be skeptical about it being a strong current going steady kinda relationship.
    I think, that a fair comparison can be made between ARB and MACP/SOCP.

    Sure there are levels that are taught to different types of soldiers ect, but any real competence comes not form standard military training but from personal development. For instance Tim Kennedy, as much as he claims a MACP background(and in fact in a Matt Larsen Combatives Black Belt), he didn't get all those great skills that put him into the UFC from standard Army training courses, there was outside personal development. Even if the base is solid, you still need training hours and mat time to get good. There is no short cut for that. This isn't to put down ARB, but rather give it, and videos that you find of it context. Guys like Retuinskih and Vadim Kolganov spent years training this stuff, as did other valid instructors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rand View Post
    Deep Operations doctrine was initially put in place pre 1937-1938 purges and wouldn't see a resurgence until later in the war. It was (supposedly) a product of the Soviet officer corps acknowledging a lower level of training, experience, and inferior equipment. And rather than concentrating highly trained troops and new armor and aircraft on one point they decided to spread out the line to prevent the enemy from concentrating their best troops in one or two tactical pockets and winning. It also prevented a concentrated counterattack. If you end up with three breaks in your line away from your best troops you can't then draw them away to close one of those gaps because you're then giving the chance for a fourth or fifth break. And if you don't move them you're risking losing depth and getting your best troops surrounded after the breakthrough and exploitation and eventually losing them to attrition.

    The quality of Soviet troops made this a better doctrine because you could bypass the pockets of better trained and experienced troops and still win. But it's not as sexy as one big decisive tactical action.
    What I find funny is that you are claiming that this stuff is some great Soviet innovation, when in fact Xerxes used it against the Greeks in 480BCE with the same success as Russia experienced in Georgia. It worked until they came up against a better trained better equipped more motivated force. Throwing hordes of people at an objective in order to overwhelm on sheer weight of numbers isn't revolutionary battle tactics, it's been around since the dawn of time. The reason why most modern armies have abandoned said approach is that it has proven to be ineffective throughout that same course of history. China still has it as battle doctrine(sorry but they got people to spare) and the Stalinist Soviet Union used it, we are talking about a guy(Stalin) who killed 750,000 military personel and communist party members in a single year because he thought they might oppose some of his policies and who killed 20-60 million of his own people for whatever reason. Human life was clearly cheap to Stalin in terms spending it to achieve his aims, so I don't find it surprising that he, or the military complex under him, would use such a strategy. That doesn't mean that it isn't deeply flawed with ample historical evidence to prove that.

  2. #42

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    An on-line translator will be necessary to read this...

    http://ozyorsk-shkola.ru/wp-content/...86;й.pdf
    This is an on-line PDF that is 52 pages long. It is a fully developed course outline, with authorizations, foundational documents, and bibliography. It shows the ARB system moved from an active military training program to a state-sponsored pre-military youth training program, and for fitness and self-defense program for schools and patriotic clubs. The bibliography and authorized source document list includes the 2009 Ministry of Defense (MOD) Manual on Physical Training in the Armed Forces Russian Federation, NFP-2009, and also includes Soviet classics on SAMBO, and Kadochnikov. It shows a shift from a purely official military program into a semi-official school fitness, self-defense, and patriotic club training program.

    Рукопашный бой (Армейский рукопашный бой), (АРБ или РБ) ARB is specifically introduced into the document on page four.
    Last edited by mrtnira; 6/02/2017 1:44pm at . Reason: Clarity of punctuation

  3. #43
    halfcut's Avatar
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    Great find

  4. #44
    BackFistMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Dempsey View Post
    Great find
    He is all the time sending me great Russian/USSR stuff.
    I have a backlog of it I keep forgetting to go through.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean Paula-Satire
    Never believe that the GOP and fellow bigots are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The bigots and Republicans have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past and that besides, they have already won

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    I think, that a fair comparison can be made between ARB and MACP/SOCP.

    Sure there are levels that are taught to different types of soldiers ect, but any real competence comes not form standard military training but from personal development. For instance Tim Kennedy, as much as he claims a MACP background(and in fact in a Matt Larsen Combatives Black Belt), he didn't get all those great skills that put him into the UFC from standard Army training courses, there was outside personal development. Even if the base is solid, you still need training hours and mat time to get good. There is no short cut for that. This isn't to put down ARB, but rather give it, and videos that you find of it context. Guys like Retuinskih and Vadim Kolganov spent years training this stuff, as did other valid instructors...



    What I find funny is that you are claiming that this stuff is some great Soviet innovation, when in fact Xerxes used it against the Greeks in 480BCE with the same success as Russia experienced in Georgia. It worked until they came up against a better trained better equipped more motivated force. Throwing hordes of people at an objective in order to overwhelm on sheer weight of numbers isn't revolutionary battle tactics, it's been around since the dawn of time. The reason why most modern armies have abandoned said approach is that it has proven to be ineffective throughout that same course of history. China still has it as battle doctrine(sorry but they got people to spare) and the Stalinist Soviet Union used it, we are talking about a guy(Stalin) who killed 750,000 military personel and communist party members in a single year because he thought they might oppose some of his policies and who killed 20-60 million of his own people for whatever reason. Human life was clearly cheap to Stalin in terms spending it to achieve his aims, so I don't find it surprising that he, or the military complex under him, would use such a strategy. That doesn't mean that it isn't deeply flawed with ample historical evidence to prove that.
    I'm claiming no such fucking thing. I stated myself that it's not something so revolutionary that no one else other than Tukhachevsky (a victim of Stalin's purges himself) could have ever conceived it.

    And in fact it seems like you don't even understand what the **** I'm typing because you then claim that the exact opposite of what I'm talking about was used by Xerxes. Deep Operation doctrine is the opposite of throwing hordes of people at an objective. It's actually throwing multiple combined arms groups at multiple objectives spread along a unified line in order to bypass the majority of the enemy and take their depth away so they no longer have an avenue of withdrawal without surrender and they have no continuous logistical lines of communication. Which is exactly what the Soviets began to do near the middle and later years of war, when the Red Army recovered somewhat from the purges and initial chaos and destruction of the Eastern Front, during which they successfully pushed to Berlin.

    RE Stalin: I already pointed out that Stalin was at fault for a regression of Soviet military doctrine due to his purges in the late 30s and during/immediately after the Winter War.
    Last edited by Rand; 6/08/2017 12:03am at .

  6. #46

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    Sorry for necroposting, had no Internet for long time, been busy herding bears in Siberia. The thread was about ARB as in "dogi plus helmet full contact fighting" not "systema seeeeecret deadly techniques" ****. Issue is that it is not something they teach in RU military, but it was originally a "space" where people in military with MA background could compete. Now it is a full blown sports, that usually exists together with MMA and other similar sports is gyms around the Russia, so sportspeople from those gyms compete in different disciplines (combat sambo/ dynamo rb/ mma/ pankration etc).

  7. #47
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by radek37 View Post
    Sorry for necroposting, had no Internet for long time, been busy herding bears in Siberia. The thread was about ARB as in "dogi plus helmet full contact fighting" not "systema seeeeecret deadly techniques" ****. Issue is that it is not something they teach in RU military, but it was originally a "space" where people in military with MA background could compete. Now it is a full blown sports, that usually exists together with MMA and other similar sports is gyms around the Russia, so sportspeople from those gyms compete in different disciplines (combat sambo/ dynamo rb/ mma/ pankration etc).
    I'm not Russian, but I know more than my fair share of Russians. From talking to the ones that aren't trying to sell me on some Russian Martial Art System(which for the time being, I'll include Sambo and other actual effective ones), my understanding of how the Russian military complex works is something like this. You have a conscript army that also has professional soldiers and officers interspersed. The professional officers, and the career(contract) soldiers usually have your typical(for a modern military) H2H training, usually Sambo or ARB based. Conscripts is is a lot more hit and miss. Now mixed in with that, going back to the old Soviet days, are the military sports clubs. Every base/posting, from what I'm told, has some sort of sport club attached where soldiers, both conscript and career, can take part in various sports(kettlebells, Judo, Sambo, Kickboxing, and sometimes Hockey). Those clubs see greater or lesser use depending on where they are located. Guys stationed in Nowhere, Siberia for instance make more regular use of the sport clubs than guys stationed in Moscow(go figure). Again it is essentially going to be the guys who are making use of those sport clubs in their off time that are going to be the H2H ass kickers. It's just that simple, and they will and do compete within the Army and occaisionally with clubs outside the Army. Guys that are really good may even be on the official Army team and go on to represent the nation in some international comps.

    That's about how it works.
    Don't rely on theory if your life is at stake.

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