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  1. #11
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    People consider themselves "pressure-testers" if they have some kind of sparring, but if your technique training is defenses against shirt grabs and haymakers, is that really represented in the sparring?

  2. #12

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You can start from a wrist grab or collar grab, or a clinch or kumi-uchi or a bear hug, or just a basic right cross. It doesn't really matter how you start the randori, that's the easy part. What happens after that first technique (or failed technique) is where the fun begins!

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin g View Post
    You can start from a wrist grab or collar grab, or a clinch or kumi-uchi or a bear hug, or just a basic right cross. It doesn't really matter how you start the randori, that's the easy part. What happens after that first technique (or failed technique) is where the fun begins!
    i disagree. the initial step is not easy. if someone does one of the openers you mentioned, he is either:

    1. somewhat confident that he will achieve the results he desires, or

    2. doesn't give a **** about the consequences if he acts violently.

    that's why in prizefighting, there is a lot of circling and "feeling out" involved. when the price of failure in initiating a violent encounter is at least, a quarter pounder of fist, why would someone go violent if they don't have an assurance of success?

    another issue is the follow-up. the initiator (aka the uke in kata) must have a next step, a succeeding action for an initial success and a failure. most of these non-competing TMA and RBSD don't, the initiator either freezes or keeps banging their head on the wall (i.e. continues with the techniques even though it evidently failed). not to mention disjointed techniques (e.g. a wrist grab to a step-in teep), you can see this in arts that don't compete yet do "randori" that doesn't have consequences (unlike full contact sparring, you'll know if the combo works or not by the avoidance of you getting hurt).

  4. #14

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    Well in a real situation, people act without thought in the heat of the moment. At least, people that are unable to keep their cool or keep their emotions in check. If they're not really into it, you see "feeling out" and check bumping, and you can tell when they're apprehensive. But if someone calls some other guy's wife a slut, then prepare to see someone swing from the fences, trying to take the other guy's head off, with no thought of a follow-up technique.

    That's why you don't see a lot of jabs or thigh kicks in street fights. People go for that quick, one-punch KO, rather than scoring points or slowly trying to whittle the opponent down (even if it doesn't always work out that way).

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin g View Post
    That's why you don't see a lot of jabs or thigh kicks in street fights. People go for that quick, one-punch KO, rather than scoring points or slowly trying to whittle the opponent down (even if it doesn't always work out that way).
    More because trained fighters are relatively rare. You could probably win more fights with a jab and leg kicks than with deadly techniques.
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  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin g View Post
    Well in a real situation, people act without thought in the heat of the moment. At least, people that are unable to keep their cool or keep their emotions in check. If they're not really into it, you see "feeling out" and check bumping, and you can tell when they're apprehensive. But if someone calls some other guy's wife a slut, then prepare to see someone swing from the fences, trying to take the other guy's head off, with no thought of a follow-up technique.
    the example you've given means that the attacker swung at you due to your 'fighting' (provocative) words. that means, when someone teaches about finding yourself in that scenario, the lesson is "how to defend yourself when you're being an asshole."

    but those versed in violence DO check out their opponents, whether in the ring or the street. competitors call it "getting someone off-guard," criminals do an "interview," the military does "probes" and patrols. only when there is a chance of success do they act. defending against these is morally (and somewhat legally) acceptable (and thus, supposedly the focus of many MA styles), unlike getting yourself blitzed by being an asshole. the exceptions are those mentally impaired and chemically mind-altered, but if you don't avoid these pronto (instead of engaging them) something is wrong with your sense of self-preservation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin g View Post
    That's why you don't see a lot of jabs or thigh kicks in street fights. People go for that quick, one-punch KO, rather than scoring points or slowly trying to whittle the opponent down (even if it doesn't always work out that way).
    of course, why go for a non-verbal (and visually threathening) "interview" when you can use a verbal one that is more socially palatable and more insidious. you will see jabs and leg kicks when the fight reaches a state of reset and acceptance (aka they manage to separate and compose themselves that they are participating in violence to reengage). and BTW, it's not whittling down, it's setting somebody up for the big one; not all people are potshotters.

    sadly, the cues needed to recognize danger (how does one look when they see you as ripe fruit to be plucked) can't be easily assimilated without exposure to danger itself, and the lowest level of that is sparring, which is most lacking in many TMA and RBSD. it's hard to fake or simulate those cues as well without much experience of really doing it (attacking others for gain, whether competitively or criminally).

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin g View Post
    You can start from a wrist grab or collar grab, or a clinch or kumi-uchi or a bear hug, or just a basic right cross. It doesn't really matter how you start the randori, that's the easy part. What happens after that first technique (or failed technique) is where the fun begins!
    Can you describe how you'd start randori from a right cross?

  8. #18

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    You square off and ask your uke to attack you in any way to get things going, so he goes for the most common attack, a right punch. You either slip it or block it or back away, and then it's officially "alive" from then on, not pre-arranged or compliant kata. He can either attack with a left, or a kick, or grab you, or he can back away and wait for you to attack, or any combination of things, all happening at once.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Can you describe how you'd start randori from a right cross?
    Throw a right cross and then throw them on their head.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin g View Post
    Well in a real situation, people act without thought in the heat of the moment. At least, people that are unable to keep their cool or keep their emotions in check. If they're not really into it, you see "feeling out" and check bumping, and you can tell when they're apprehensive. But if someone calls some other guy's wife a slut, then prepare to see someone swing from the fences, trying to take the other guy's head off, with no thought of a follow-up technique.

    That's why you don't see a lot of jabs or thigh kicks in street fights. People go for that quick, one-punch KO, rather than scoring points or slowly trying to whittle the opponent down (even if it doesn't always work out that way).
    Sooooo....... yea..... you don't see that because people don't know how to fight and they just flail wildly like a chimp.

    A 1-2 combination is probably the best way to KO a human. The jab lifts the chin and the cross sets them down.

    When 1 or 2 Powerful Leg kicks are landed on someone that isnt conditioned and doesnt know how to check kicks it will cause their leg to quit working after one or two kicks. It also can stop pros
    Last edited by Raycetpfl; 3/05/2017 11:06pm at .

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