Page 1 of 2 12 Last
  1. #1
    hungryjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    5,257
    Style
    judo hiatus
    1

    A Hard Look at Gender Identification and Sports

    Posting here for serious discussion. Mods, please feel free to move to an appropriate sub-forum.

    We've had discussion here on competitors fighting outside their birth gender. Fallon Fox comes to mind, born a man, identifying as a women and allowed to compete in that category within the sport of MMA. Now we're seeing the flip side. This time it's at the high school level with girl's wrestling. This, in my opinion, is not fair all the way around. The young woman in question, identifying as a male, wants to compete against other males.

    The girls are at a disadvantage. Young Mack Beggs began receiving testosterone therapy in 2015. Below link from the Washington Post's writer Kent Babb provides a good look at both sides.


    Euless Trinty High School junior Mack Beggs, a transgender wrestler competing in the Texas girls’ state championship tournament, reacts after advancing. Beggs, who went on to win the 6A crown at 110 pounds, is transitioning to a boy but must wrestle in the girls’ divison because of University Interscholastic League rules. (Michael Stravato/For The Washington Post)


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...=.f1c682e9194f

  2. #2
    DCS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,581
    Style
    Jits
    1
    What's the problem? Let him wrestle with boys.

  3. #3
    hungryjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    5,257
    Style
    judo hiatus
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    What's the problem? Let him wrestle with boys.
    You didn't read the article. Texas will not allow a student athlete to compete in a gender other than that at birth.

  4. #4
    DCS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,581
    Style
    Jits
    1
    I did read the article. I stated my opinion about the subjed which differs from UIL's.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Sarasota, FL
    Posts
    2,188
    Style
    Jiu-Jitsu, Judo,Wrestling
    Click Here to Visit My Business
    3
    Who cares what gender this wrestler is?
    It's the PED use that should disqualify this wrestler from youth competition against boys or girls.
    Amateur athletes who take steroids, or hormones, or blood cell manipulations known to increase performance,
    should not be allowed to compete in standard amateur youth competitions,
    regardless of gender, nor gender issues, nor other medical conditions.
    No steroids should be allowed in youth amatuer athletic competition, period.

  6. #6
    DCS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,581
    Style
    Jits
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
    No steroids should be allowed in youth amatuer athletic competition, period.
    I agree, but in this case... its complicated.

    If his testosterone levels are in the normal range for a male born boy his age, there's no unfairness.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Sarasota, FL
    Posts
    2,188
    Style
    Jiu-Jitsu, Judo,Wrestling
    Click Here to Visit My Business
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    I agree, but in this case... its complicated.

    If his testosterone levels are in the normal range for a male born boy his age, there's no unfairness.
    I respectfully disagree.
    I posted this response earlier on the Bullshido Facebook board, so please pardon the straight copy and paste from my earlier comments for part of this response:
    There are many reasons.

    First, many young athletes seek performance enhancers without regard for safety or correct medical application.
    If a young athlete thinks they will face an opponent with such an advantage
    (even under medical supervision and application)
    then they will seek to level the playing field or get superior advantage with or without medical supervised and approved application,
    and you end up with a PED arms race in the young athletes.

    Second, some of these PEDs can give an opponent such an advantage that many people feel it puts the competitors they face at risk.

    Third, many of the most successful coaches in grappling sports
    (such as Dan Gable as one example)
    feel that athletic PED use is a mental crutch, and contrary to the mental resilience and discipline that we are trying to instill in young athletes.
    When I competed in the World Tournament in Rio in the mid-nineties,
    the joke was that if you sat on the toilets in the training gyms that the steroids that had been pissed out by the local Brazilians would rise up through the bowl and enter your body.
    Rillion Gracie famously said during the black belt rules meeting at the event that all the steroids defeated the whole point of training technique based arts such as Jiu-Jitsu, where the display of skill was supposed to be what was being proved, not who could inject the most chemicals into their body.
    I think Mr. Gracie had a good point.
    What are we trying to teach the kids when we pump their bodies full of PEDs to boost their strength or stamina or recovery times instead of having them earn their performance through hard work, conditioning, and the development of skill?

    In this case, we are seeing a wrestler who is taking the PEDs for gender related issues.
    Still, I don't think we should make PED exceptions for medical conditions or gender related issue when it comes to standard youth amateur athletic competitions.
    For what is it worth, every time I grapple,
    I do so with anemia, two artificial hips, nerve damage in my hands and legs, knees with permanent and progressive fractures, and a partially paralyzed leg that is significantly atrophied.
    Sometimes we have to suck it up and play the card we are dealt if we want to participate in athletic endeavors.
    When it comes to athletics, many competitors are not going to have the body they want or be able to do the athletics things they want to do with the body they have.
    It is a savage universe, and athletic competition is supposed to be an unforgiving surrogate for that savage universe, and a test of our ability to use what we do have in a skillful manner.

    Don't think that I don't empathize with children dealing with their life issues,
    and I am have seen girls pin and submit boys in wrestling and submission competitions when in the same weight class,
    so this is not a gender related issue for me.
    And I am not commenting on what gender this wrestler is or is not, or what gender opponents this wrestler should be allowed to wrestle.
    My issue is that I think there is a problem with PED use for youth amateur athletes even in the case of circumstances like medical issues or gender issues.

    I understand that these issues are complicated, so I understand if you or other people disagree.
    Eventually stem cell treatments, genetic engineering, better hormonal solutions, and non-biologic implants are going to make humans capable of super human performance, and in a surprisingly near future, I think.
    (Experimental gene splicing kits and CRISPR kist can be ordered by home hobbyists now, this area of general experimentation and research not related to athletics but the general area of gene manipulation is going to start moving, first on lower life forms, but then rather quickly right up the chain in the coming decade or decades, I think).
    These kinds of performance enhancement questions are only going to get more complicated...
    Last edited by WFMurphyPhD; 2/26/2017 7:56pm at .

  8. #8
    BKR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    17,196
    Style
    Kodokan Judo/BJJ
    4
    So it's a young woman on testosterone wrestling other women who are not on testosterone. That's not particularly Fair. I would say this person should have to choose between switching their gender identity or wrestling. Or and all I know it's against the rules wrestle with the boys.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  9. #9
    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten. supporting member
    Devil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    11,358
    -1
    Why do people have to be so goddamn weird? You were born a girl. You're a girl. Be a girl. If you want to be a fucking weirdo, don't be surprised when the world takes away the **** you like.

  10. #10
    ghost55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    4,177
    Style
    Kyokushin/BJJ
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    You didn't read the article. Texas will not allow a student athlete to compete in a gender other than that at birth.
    And that is fucking stupid.

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in