1. #1
    Bullshido's Greatest Ninja staff
    plasma's Avatar
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    John Danaher Leg-Lock System Drama

    It's been an interesting several weeks. Basically the summary of the story is Island Top Team conducted a seminar, filmed it and posted it online of material from a private lesson with Eddie Cummings. Garry then posted on Facebook:

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Tonnon
    If you go to a seminar or private from anyone and take the information you learned, especially if you essentially recite it word for word, for free or for cost on the internet, you are a jerk off. It's essentially plagiarism. Thanks for supporting the art moron. let's just keep this an amateur sport forever. Hard enough to make a living in this sport without you giving information people worked hard to develop for free. Also if you use another persons name, likeness, or pictures to promote your videos or dvd, without their consent, that's insanely inconsiderate, and in some cases illegal.
    Which cause the video to be taken down and then re-uploaded a few weeks later:

    Not going to link here

    I watched the videos, there is definitely some very interest tidbits. I played with some of it last night, with the leg locks systems from Hall, Bodycomb and others I've learned and have used successfully. A couple of things:

    1. This isn't Danaher's system, its just some basic information on Ashi Gurami and some basics of how to finish the Heel Hook. The concept of Knee control has been something I've seen and even taught for years. I picked some some details I thought were interesting though.

    2. Finishing the Heel Hook, I saw some stuff I really liked, that he didn't actually explain on how to force the bend in the leg but he did it each time. I been experimenting with a few methods, but I tried the one I saw in the videos last night from the Inside Sankaku, Ashi Gurami, Reap and 50/50 that was working really well. The concept and capturing the toes I have been taught since white belt.

    3. Some of the trouble shooting the Double Outside Ashi position was interesting using the concept of framing.

    4. The hardest part of of Leg Lock systems is the entry into the positions, which aren't even touched in these video. Calling them Danaher's system wasn't accurate. More accurate would be, "some Leg Lock Finishing Details I picked up from training with Danaher's students"

    I know a lot of people that train under Danaher have said he has a some of the details wrong of stuff he is teaching, and I can see that as I filled in a lot of holes from my personal knowledge and training, but they were interesting none the less.

    I been out of the country for the last few years, but I am looking forward to doing a Cummings seminar after I return to the US this year.
    Last edited by plasma; 5/11/2016 3:26am at .

  2. #2

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    I agree with Tonnon. I had the same thing happen to me a while back. A dude would drop in to my classes, then showed up at one of my locations and ripped off the material, which I'd yet to demo, as they didn't want to pay for it. He used my resume and even went as far as to obtain a pass with my name encoded. Took several years to deal with the matter. Respect the IP. If you borrow something, cool. I do. But if you just jack a whole system, you're in the wrong.

  3. #3

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    My 2 cents

    I dont like the tone of Garry Tonon here. I don't know the guy at all - good jiu jitsu, but the way he comes off in interviews i have seen is dislikable imo.

    They - the team trained by Danaher - are able to catch a lot of guys with heelhooks. Because a lot of guys are not very good at heelhooks - and the leglock system obviously works.
    Tonon seems angry and butthurt because someone is explaining some of "their" techniques online.
    Why is that? Is he afraid he will lose some advantage he has? The best guys in the world teach their techniques online.

    Is he angry he himself doesnt gain anything with the techniques becoming known?
    The way I see it - techniques cant be secret for long nowadays people train together people teach eachother.

    He seems angry that he himself isnt making money in jiu jitsu. If instead of being angry - he would open up a trainingwebsite like Keenan has - people that actually like tonon and his techniques could become members and pay for his instructionals and he could benefit from it.

    Now Tonon is just bullying Rob into shutting down his instructionals.
    Tonon looks like a dick - Rob is being bullied & the public doesnt get to see a cool instructional.
    Looks like a lose-lose-lose situation to me.

  4. #4

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    Sad to see stuff like this. In my PTK school, one of my friends asked early on what loyalty meant there, the answer was pretty simple "be honest about where you got your knowledge". Martial arts is such a small community, regardless of the system, that people are going to find out pretty quick when this kind of crap happens.

  5. #5
    Nutcracker, sweet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cinnamon View Post
    I dont like the tone of Garry Tonon here. I don't know the guy at all - good jiu jitsu, but the way he comes off in interviews i have seen is dislikable imo.

    They - the team trained by Danaher - are able to catch a lot of guys with heelhooks. Because a lot of guys are not very good at heelhooks - and the leglock system obviously works.
    Tonon seems angry and butthurt because someone is explaining some of "their" techniques online.
    Why is that? Is he afraid he will lose some advantage he has? The best guys in the world teach their techniques online.

    Is he angry he himself doesnt gain anything with the techniques becoming known?
    The way I see it - techniques cant be secret for long nowadays people train together people teach eachother.

    He seems angry that he himself isnt making money in jiu jitsu. If instead of being angry - he would open up a trainingwebsite like Keenan has - people that actually like tonon and his techniques could become members and pay for his instructionals and he could benefit from it.

    Now Tonon is just bullying Rob into shutting down his instructionals.
    Tonon looks like a dick - Rob is being bullied & the public doesnt get to see a cool instructional.
    Looks like a lose-lose-lose situation to me.
    Meh, at a high level I would tend to agree with you, but...

    If what is being replicated transcends the actual maneuver, going into specifics of teaching that are unique to the originator, then I can start to see the case. Beethoven's 5th is essentially public domain, but specific performances of it are generally copyright protected.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by cinnamon View Post
    I dont like the tone of Garry Tonon here. I don't know the guy at all - good jiu jitsu, but the way he comes off in interviews i have seen is dislikable imo.

    They - the team trained by Danaher - are able to catch a lot of guys with heelhooks. Because a lot of guys are not very good at heelhooks - and the leglock system obviously works.
    Tonon seems angry and butthurt because someone is explaining some of "their" techniques online.
    Why is that? Is he afraid he will lose some advantage he has? The best guys in the world teach their techniques online.

    Is he angry he himself doesnt gain anything with the techniques becoming known?
    The way I see it - techniques cant be secret for long nowadays people train together people teach eachother.

    He seems angry that he himself isnt making money in jiu jitsu. If instead of being angry - he would open up a trainingwebsite like Keenan has - people that actually like tonon and his techniques could become members and pay for his instructionals and he could benefit from it.

    Now Tonon is just bullying Rob into shutting down his instructionals.
    Tonon looks like a dick - Rob is being bullied & the public doesnt get to see a cool instructional.
    Looks like a lose-lose-lose situation to me.
    Really dude? Honestly, I think RGA is a bunch of assholes, with the exception of Tonon. Tonon takes his lumps with class, deals them out with class. Ryan has been alternatively shitty and cool, and some of their associates are fucking assholes that don't want to meet me in public. Tonon is class. To rip off someone's material and sell it as your own is a shitty, shitty move. If someone did that to me, I'd sue the ************. Rob is making it pretty clear he's a crook by taking his material down. Imagine if someone accused me of ripping off their leg lock material. You think I'd take it down? Of course not, cause it was hard work and it's my work. You could have a thousand people claim otherwise, but it would remain. But an imitator will fold in a second, because in his heart he knows he's a fraud. This dude is a fraud. If you want leg locks, buy them from a leg locker. If you want the RGA leg locks, buy them from RGA.

  7. #7

  8. #8

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    Danaher System

    Im just waiting for Danaher to come out with a subscription based website...

  9. #9

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    isn't everything from someone else anyways, sometime i think i created a variation of some move just to stuble across a video of it a few months later. i think i seen this seminar footage it was nothing new i haven't see before or at least some variation of it.. i assumed it was out of respect that he posted it as the Danaher LLS he could of just pretented it was his own material, but what do i know i only saw the footage once and didn't bother going back to review it again.
    Last edited by GFG; 12/17/2016 1:01pm at .

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