Page 1 of 36 1234511 ... Last
  1. #1
    W. Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    The Vale of Shadows
    Posts
    12,079
    Style
    Mixed
    -2

    How not to Gong Sau, Rabbit Style. CMA Nutrider Edition.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudOWNED View Post
    Saw some weapon vids posted which I think were intended to make the point that WC is about more than just empty hand. But I don't see any reason their weapons training should be held to a different standard than their empty hand. How does it do sparring? How would it fair against HEMA in sparring, or Dog Brothers/FMA in sparring? Is it realistic? Does it work? Those questions are just as legit as asking how (empty hand) WC does in MMA or kickboxing.
    They are legit questions, but I don't think we need to validate the 4,000+ year history of Chinese weaponry and the millions that have died under them. The Chinese were masterful innovators not just in iron, bronze, and steel weapon making but technique.

    Don't use wushu as your metric. I think the whole "flowery" sport of that has really skewed perspectives on Chinese weapons. Chinese knife and saber fighting are as efficient and deadly as anything in FMA or HEMA, and staff techniques are legendary worldwide, in fact opinions on them from renowned military leaders (with impressive battle histories) are recorded. I won't even get into the halberds, spears, whips...we could go down a list of 100 weapons and not be close to done. I'd love to see a Dog Brothers stick fighter get within 5 feet of someone with a steel chain whip....not happening.

    HEMA and Dog Brothers and FMA are fine and good and alive but clearly the focus is on a short list of (relatively SAFE) weapons. I doubt someone trained correctly in Chinese weapons would have a hard time against any of those. But by trained I mean all the necessary elements, form, drilling, live practice. NO dancing or wavy wushu steel etc. You need weapons with the right weight, balance, training with aliveness timing and some sort of realistic pace.

    Empty hand, there are Wing Chun guys cropping up all over MMA now, it's only taken 30 years for somebody to not only train Chun, but train FOR the ruleset while doing so. It's hard to say these guys doing well in competition are doing Chun "wrong" etc. If anything seeing is believing, and it's the verbal "pure Chun" crowd that needs to be told to shut the **** up or get on the lei tai, ring etc.

    Sean Obasi is a great case study. Went into MMA a Chunner crying about being a "Wing Chun" man. Stuck with it, took licks, learned his opponents and I just posted a great video of him. So, somebody who was a Wing Chun joke a few years back is now able to roll with any MMA guy.

    AND the MMA guys are the one's saying "This is the real Chun right here". Obasi is silent. Note though he doesn't "Trumpet" the Chun like before. Now, he MO GONG KAU, he GONG SAU. It's how it ought to be, and I hope the online Chunnuts are paying attention, because if Wing Chun is to survive the next century they need people like Obasi, or they're already done and just don't know it.

    Hey maybe we'll all get lucky and Obasi will show up to the DB gathering with double knives, screaming "I'M WING CHUN KILLER BABY WHO WANTS TO BATTLE!!!"

    IT could happen..
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 5/04/2015 2:07pm at .

  2. #2
    JudOWNED's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Judo Heaven
    Posts
    1,498
    Style
    Judo
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Hey maybe we'll all get lucky and Obasi will show up to the DB gathering with double knives, screaming "I'M WING CHUN KILLER BABY WHO WANTS TO BATTLE!!!"

    IT could happen..
    Haha. That actually reminds me that John Clements the founder of The ARMA made his claim to fame by entering a Kung Fu Tournament that had a weapons division. He ended up winning, of course. But when he signed up and they asked for his "style" he said Elizabethan! lulz

  3. #3
    BackFistMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Sinsinnatti Oh Hi Ho
    Posts
    14,231
    Style
    all things in Moderation
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    They are legit questions, but I don't think we need to validate the 4,000+ year history of Chinese weaponry and the millions that have died under them. The Chinese were masterful innovators not just in iron, bronze, and steel weapon making but technique.
    ... uh ... yeah ... we do actually. There are plenty of bullshit histories and techniques in the CMA weapons world, I have no idea what the **** you are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    They are legit questions, but I don't think we need to validate the 4,000+ year history of Chinese weaponry and the millions that have died under them.
    yep ... I did indeed read that right. You have lost your fucking mind.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean Paula-Satire
    Never believe that the GOP and fellow bigots are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The bigots and Republicans have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past and that besides, they have already won

  4. #4
    W. Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    The Vale of Shadows
    Posts
    12,079
    Style
    Mixed
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by JudOWNED View Post
    Haha. That actually reminds me that John Clements the founder of The ARMA made his claim to fame by entering a Kung Fu Tournament that had a weapons division. He ended up winning, of course. But when he signed up and they asked for his "style" he said Elizabethan! lulz
    I fully support this sort of thing, if for no other reason to pressure the idiots who think choreographed displays of fake weaponry are the best way to preserve the legacy.

    I think the HEMA/DB/FMA crowd do a better job of keeping things real, but that doesn't mean the whole CMA crowd doesn't. I know I personally practiced my saber fencing a hell of a lot more than I practice the Single Moon Flowing Knife form...and it's a really short form compared to the empty handed Southern forms. There are barely a couple dozen technique to learn most of them involved standard parry, riposte, lunge, etc.

    Just like with empty handed, there are only so many ways to defend and attack with what's in your hands. But having watched both Southern wushu formats of my weapons, as well as the non-wushu stuff, it's like night and day comparing the two.

    I think more are drawn to the former for the same reason they were drawn to the "non-alive" Chun training that was popular for so many decades....nobody REALLY want to ever get dirty with Wing Chun. They just want to look good, swing flashy steel, or do slow movements of the Siu Nim Tao. From my POV this is the most superficial thing about kung fu, the people who want to learn it so others will watch them in awe.

    Trouble is, people like you and me aren't awed by that crap. We are awed when we see actual skill on display against another, because it stands out significantly against the fluffy, dancy performance type crap peddled as MA.

  5. #5
    JudOWNED's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Judo Heaven
    Posts
    1,498
    Style
    Judo
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
    ... uh ... yeah ... we do actually. There are plenty of bullshit histories and techniques in the CMA weapons world, I have no idea what the **** you are talking about.
    .
    But the Flying Guillotine is real, though, right? RIGHT???

  6. #6
    W. Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    The Vale of Shadows
    Posts
    12,079
    Style
    Mixed
    -4
    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
    ... uh ... yeah ... we do actually. There are plenty of bullshit histories and techniques in the CMA weapons world, I have no idea what the **** you are talking about.
    Not really, unless you're playing advocate and going down that dead horse of "the Chinese don't know their weapons"? Funny how HEMA, FMA, and DB weapon "play" always gets a pass, but not CMA, because the FMA/HEMA/DB guys say otherwise?

    I've seen all I have to from that crowd, some obviously know a thing or two but most would not have a clue about weapon fighting for real.

    Talk about Koolaid drinkers trying to rewrite history with an anti-Chinese slant. You guys are silly, and make me laugh if it weren't for the fact some people truly believe playing with sticks and helmets is anything close to live saber or staff combat.

    So go ahead and name the made up weapon histories or bullshit weapon technique (that aren't just modern wushu).

    Also, so what makes you think there is no bullshit in any of those other arts you seem to be nutriding?

    Is all of FMA realistic? I'd say no.

    Is Dog Brothers the pinnacle of alive weapon arts? Nope.

    HEMA? Are you kidding me it's one step beyond LARPING in some cases.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 5/04/2015 2:26pm at .

  7. #7
    Permalost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    14,414
    Style
    street paddleboarding
    10
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Is all of FMA realistic? I'd say no.

    Is Dog Brothers the pinnacle of alive weapon arts? Nope.

    HEMA? Are you kidding me it's one step beyond LARPING in some cases.
    The vast majority of CMA weapon work out there is fanciful forms done in unnecessarily low stances and unnecessarily overexaggerated attacks. Not so for FMA or HEMA. The likelihood of finding fencing masks and other weapon sparring gear is pretty high for an FMA group. Not so for CMA. Those that practice that way in CMA are outliers, not the norm.

    If Dog Bros isn't the pinnacle of alive weapon arts, what is?

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    210
    Style
    MMA,BJJ, Gongkwon Yusul
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Not really, unless you're playing advocate and going down that dead horse of "the Chinese don't know their weapons"? Funny how HEMA, FMA, and DB weapon "play" always gets a pass, but not CMA, because the FMA/HEMA/DB guys say otherwise?

    I've seen all I have to from that crowd, some obviously know a thing or two but most would not have a clue about weapon fighting for real.

    Talk about Koolaid drinkers trying to rewrite history with an anti-Chinese slant. You guys are silly, and make me laugh if it weren't for the fact some people truly believe playing with sticks and helmets is anything close to live saber or staff combat.

    So go ahead and name the made up weapon histories or bullshit weapon technique (that aren't just modern wushu).

    Also, so what makes you think there is no bullshit in any of those other arts you seem to be nutriding?

    Is all of FMA realistic? I'd say no.

    Is Dog Brothers the pinnacle of alive weapon arts? Nope.

    HEMA? Are you kidding me it's one step beyond LARPING in some cases.
    This all sounds awfully familiar. Take out the weapons and you're arguing that combat sports aren't real fighting because you can't rip each other's throats out.

    Obviously HEMA, dog bros gatherings etc. aren't a perfect, or even particularly good simulation of life or death combat with bladed weapons, but since when is forms practice a better simulation?

  9. #9
    BackFistMonkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Sinsinnatti Oh Hi Ho
    Posts
    14,231
    Style
    all things in Moderation
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Not really, unless you're playing advocate and going down that dead horse of "the Chinese don't know their weapons"? Funny how HEMA, FMA, and DB weapon "play" always gets a pass, but not CMA, because the FMA/HEMA/DB guys say otherwise?

    I've seen all I have to from that crowd, some obviously know a thing or two but most would not have a clue about weapon fighting for real.

    Talk about Koolaid drinkers trying to rewrite history with an anti-Chinese slant. You guys are silly, and make me laugh if it weren't for the fact some people truly believe playing with sticks and helmets is anything close to live saber or staff combat.

    So go ahead and name the made up weapon histories or bullshit weapon technique (that aren't just modern wushu).

    Also, so what makes you think there is no bullshit in any of those other arts you seem to be nutriding?

    Is all of FMA realistic? I'd say no.

    Is Dog Brothers the pinnacle of alive weapon arts? Nope.

    HEMA? Are you kidding me it's one step beyond LARPING in some cases.
    Still waiting to see full contact sparring with CMA weapons. The reason I "nuthug" is because they have proven their training methods bring results. You said you want CMA to have a free pass and not be questioned about it's weapon history or legitimacy of weapons and training methods. That is retarded. No style or lineage gets a pass.

    Some styles and teaching methods have already cut the mustard, thus they get respect. When they start fucking off they lose respect.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean Paula-Satire
    Never believe that the GOP and fellow bigots are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The bigots and Republicans have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past and that besides, they have already won

  10. #10
    W. Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    The Vale of Shadows
    Posts
    12,079
    Style
    Mixed
    Quote Originally Posted by JudOWNED View Post
    But the Flying Guillotine is real, though, right? RIGHT???
    We already know they were real.

    You can even raise arguments about effectiveness, and point to Mythbusters fabrications on how effectively a modern construct might actually decapitate someone.

    But again there is knowing the real history of a weapon, and making assumptions based on pop culture. Did you guys think the ancient weapon known as 血滴子 was a "flying beheader"? If you did you watch too many kung fu movies.

    Make sure before you you take into account that 血滴子 were actually poisoned, and never had to actually decapitate anybody. It's basically just a box you drop on someone's head with poisoned edge.

    Note: Google Translate tell you "血滴子" means "Flying Guillotine". It doesn't, that name is obviously given to it from non-Chinese sources.

    The name of the weapon is "a tiny drop of blood", because as a poisoned weapon of assassination, that's all it needed to draw to kill you.

Page 1 of 36 1234511 ... Last

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in