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  1. #11
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    DKJr's Avatar
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    I use something similar to this when competing against physically/technically superior opponents.

    However it's more shutdown their moves and avoid engaging them until they over-commit trying to do something different, then attack 100%. Essentially grappling guerrilla tactics.

    Example would be tons of grip fighting and movement on your feet or in sitting guard to create space, until they try to force something then attack to improve your position with a sub or a sweep.

  2. #12
    W. Rabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    I came here to tell him to watch that fight, but you beat me to it.

    Effective or not I personally find it to be a boring way to fight.
    But martial arts is not about entertaining yourself, it's about survival to the finish line, whether the reward is money, trophy, or your life.

    Royce was not bored, he was fighting for survival for 16 straight minutes against a raging bull of a man (with a serious mustache).

    Like Omega and the other more experienced guys said, the point should not be just a strategy of "lay and wait", but "defend until the moment for attack comes, and do not stop the attack until defense is more important".

    Sun Tzu's philosophy for defeating whole armies was not much different. Technical maneuvers and fancy strategems are not the secret to winning. Fatigue the enemy without making too many mistakes of your own, watch for vulnerability, then strike it boldly and victory is yours. Know this BEFORE going into battle, and you may have already won.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 6/30/2014 12:45pm at .

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.HoneyBadger View Post
    Ah. O.k.

    So it's not a GracieTM or whatever.

    I feel like action>reaction (for me at least)
    Go No Sen is the japanophile (weabo?) terminology. It's only one way to approach combat, and has to do with initiative, who has it and when.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    But martial arts is not about entertaining yourself, it's about survival to the finish line, whether the reward is money, trophy, or your life.

    Royce was not bored, he was fighting for survival for 16 straight minutes against a raging bull of a man (with a serious mustache).

    Like Omega and the other more experienced guys said, the point should not be just a strategy of "lay and wait", but "defend until the moment for attack comes, and do not stop the attack until defense is more important".
    BJJ is also a sport so having fun can be a part of it. Not everything is always a life or death struggle. Also I am well aware how the strategy works and have been forced to resort to it on many occcasions.
    Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
    –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    I'm not saying you will, I'm saying that's the strategy. Fatigue the person to the point where you can beat him. That's part of the philosophy hence the Gracie Challenge rules.
    I remember when judoka first started paying attention to the Gracie stuff, especially closed guard. At one point in my life I was traveling a bit, and I'd always try to go and do Judo wherever I was. Sometimes it was in bumfuck, USA, and I'd find some little judo club to train at.

    I'd almost always run into somebody(ies) on the tatami who had watched a Gracie VHS or whatever. I could tell because we'd start ne waza randori, and they would right away wrap their legs around me and start squeezing, all the while with a smug look on their face like they had accomplished some great deed.

    They'd just lay their, waiting for me to wear myself out trying to escape the deadly closed guard...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    BJJ is also a sport so having fun can be a part of it. Not everything is always a life or death struggle.
    You're confusing literal meanings with philosophical, and what you call "fun" is really just your word for the pleasure you derive from training. In the old days of martial arts, people had "fun" too...killing people.

    You don't think Chinese warriors had fun chopping heads off?

    Or, the Samurai....who enjoyed taking heads so much it became a major part of their code and victory ritual. When the Samurai won a battle, they'd literally collect and count heads for enjoyment and honor AFTER defeating their enemies. Bring on the sake. OOH LOOK! I got a general!

    Training can be fun. BJJ is fun.

    Being punched in the face, choked unconscious, kicked in the shin, or having a limb hyperextended is not fun. Only people who have watched too much Fight Club really believe that.

    Even as a "sport", BJJ still represents a life or death struggle, otherwise stop calling it a martial art entirely. It's a battle of will and physical skill. It doesn't matter what rules are involved. What is tapping other than a symbolic gesture "please sir, don't break my arm or strangle me to death". Your body sees it that way, no matter how you rationalize it from a modern "civilized" point of view (ie a narrow one).
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 6/30/2014 2:12pm at .

  7. #17

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    I'm in the middle of reading a biography on Jigaro Kano. Some of this stuff is in there too.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    You're confusing literal meanings with philosophical, and what you call "fun" is really just your word for the pleasure you derive from training.

    Training can be fun. BJJ is fun.

    Being punched in the face, choked unconscious, kicked in the shin, or having a limb hyperextended is not fun. Only people who have watched too much Fight Club really believe that.

    Even as a "sport", BJJ still represents a life or death struggle, otherwise stop calling it a martial art entirely. It's a battle of will and physical skill. It doesn't matter what rules are involved. What is tapping other than a symbolic gesture "please sir, don't break my arm or strangle me to death". Your body sees it that way, no matter how you rationalize it from a modern "civilized" point of view (ie a narrow one).

    You don't think Chinese warriors had fun chopping heads off?

    Or, the Samurai....who enjoyed taking heads so much it became a major part of their code and victory ritual. When the Samurai won a battle, they'd literally count heads for enjoyment and honor AFTER defeating their enemies.
    Oh for **** sakes its a hobby for most of us out here.
    As a hobby I personal rather pursue it in the manner that brings me the most joy in doing it.
    Like I said I do use the method when I have to.
    It is far more fun for me to setup an attack then to sit and wait for one to open up.
    Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
    –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Oh for **** sakes its a hobby for most of us out here.
    As a hobby I personal rather pursue it in the manner that brings me the most joy in doing it.
    Like I said I do use the method when I have to.
    It is far more fun for me to setup an attack then to sit and wait for one to open up.
    And while I understand what you are saying, this is why you will never reach your full potential until you open your mind to what you're missing while you focus on your "fun". You have a mindset that holds you back from being the best martial artist you could be, Goodlun.

    It's perfectly acceptable, and you'll have lots of company with the rest of the 99% who are "hobbyists".

    But then, you've made martial arts about your personal enjoyment and joy, instead of the art.

    You are masturbating through BJJ, essentially.

    Might as well take up knitting, imho. You'll never break anything and will help conserve the world's supply of ibuprofen.

    I guess I just have higher standards than you. It's OK, I hope to compete before I die and to do so, I have to avoid a "hobbyist" mentality.

    Again, if you do it for "fun" or "sport", that's OK!!! Just don't ever call yourself a martial artist again. That title is reserved for those who actually study the arts of war, like the Gracies.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 6/30/2014 2:37pm at .

  10. #20

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    Ooh, daddy and daddy are fighting!

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