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  1. #151

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Nihon Koryu Bujutsu
    Hi, everyone.

    This is a map of the theory that I have by now.

    It make sence to me, by the way. Maybe to you too...

    I tryed to give it a kind of chronological order.

    Take a look:


  2. #152

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    The story about Toda and Ishitani are because in that old times you need to tell a story for to be in some way legit. (But maybe he did not say any of that, so it could be another person after him. [Who knows?]) All this are good stuff: Good Koryu and good Gendai Budo from the Takamatsuden.

    What happened after Takamatsu is an other story. (And is not my fault.)
    I am less inclined to view this positively. To say "our founder is x historical figure" or "our ryugi is the product of a supernatural audience" is innocuous enough, given the context of distant medieval history, but doing that a) in the 20th century and b) in a way that exchanges obvious tale-spinning for a story that approaches plausibility strikes me as an effort to deliberately manipulate the truth, rather than some attempt at mythologizing.

    I'm also curious about how Takamatsu would have intended this to be beneficial to students. As far as I can tell, the benefit of Koryu lies in usage of kata and oral tradition to impart a worldview and ideology that is hopefully beneficial to fighting or whatever else the ryu exists for (in addition to the technical skillsets involved). Most of the skills are archaic, and whatever is left over competes with being done better elsewhere by modern equivalents with impetus, and the pedagogy is suited only to small, dedicated groups. For this, the genuine articles were dropping (and continue to drop) like flies.

    Why add to that?
    Last edited by DARPAChief; 2/19/2013 9:11pm at .

  3. #153
    I dont get it. Why, for example, is something a Hatsumiden related term and some other things a Takamatsuden related? Is your theory that Hatsumi sensei made up the terms?

    Why the line from Ueno Takashi Shinden Fudo Ryu to Takamatsu? Are you suggesting Takamatsu learnt this from Ueno? You do know Ueno Takashi claimed menkyo in Shinden Fudo Ryu Taijutsu from Takamatsu? Why the yellowish "non masters" zone? I understand if you would call it something like "needs more research" but so far, what we know of these gentlemen, they were the real deal, followers of the old ways in a new and quickly changing world.

    Why the "in doubt" on Ishitani sensei? You still doubt he even existed despite him having a tombstone and non-bujinkan accounts of his existence?

    Regards / Skuggvarg

  4. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Oniwaban View Post
    I have not put more emphasis on the older editions: I put it on the three of them.

    You have to value the data:

    1957 - Hatsumi met Takamatsu.
    1959 - Hatsumi gets Soke.
    1963 - First Edition. Hatsumi do not appear in all Ryu-ha. Only Togakure-ryu.
    1969 - Second edition. Hatsumi do not appear in all.
    1972 - Takamatsu Toshitsugu dies.
    1976 - Ueno Takahi dies.
    1978 - Third editon. Hatsumi appears in Ryu-ha where he did not appear before.
    1980 - Hatsumi is well known as the 34 Togakure-ryu Master.
    1980 to 1994 - Everything was Togakure-ryu Ninpou.
    1995 - Fukumoto Yoshio dies.
    1996 - Hatsumi claims to be Soke of nine different Ryu-ha.

    The time goes only in one direction, my firend.
    Can you please quote your sources for the above timeline? And what value is it you think these dates have? Who was the source for the information for the BRDJ -63 edition? Are you saying Hatsumi sensei provided the information?

    I would like to know about Koyama Ryutaro's work. When you find it, please share it with us.
    I might do that but given the strange agendas Im not sure Im that interested.

    By the way: Please, give me the ISBN (International Serial Book Number) of the 2003 Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. No one knows about it. Nor Wikpedia have it:
    hAre you looking at the same wikipedia site as I am? Check further down. There is a 2003 edited version of the 1978 edition. I dont have it but plan to buy it when Im in Japan next time.
    Now a days, everything is in a data base.

    By now, there is not any 2003 edition. Is just a mith. Someone's propaganda.
    This is just silly. What kind of propaganda would that be? A myth, come on. Are you living in the lolipop world or what?

    If you find the number, please share it with us.

    I am not important here. The only important thing here is the information that we can or can not find. Please, focus.
    Yes, you are because you are coming on with your badly researched ideas of how things are. You should focus on solid sources instead of internet. Go meet Hatsumi sensei and ask him to his face if you have problems with his Ryu-ha.

    I am trying to get a Takamasuden story that could makes sence for everybody. If this is an agenda for you, well, it can be.

    I repeat: I am not the important thing here. Focus. We have information to find.
    Please enlighten me again why you need the information again? Are you by any chance part of the young generation that wrongly expects all things to be readily available for you?

    I understand that Zoughari is a Dr. He is an historian. And in fact he worked on the Bujinkan administraitve office. Well, he said what he said anyway... And he said more than that, by the way.
    Yes, he is. He did his work and recieved his rank but this has nothing to do with the administrative office of the Bujinkan. He may well have helped with one or two things but I stand firm with my notion that he did not have an official position of any kind. Im aware he has said many interesting things. Your point is?

    No japanese martial art organizacion as well Dai Nippon Butoku Kai, Nippon Kobudo Kyokai, Nippon Kobudo Shinkokai, Zen Nihon Sogo Budo Renmei or any other has gave credibility to Hatsumi credentials and we are talking about organizations promoted by the imperial house and the goverment.

    In other words: Hatsumi is not a Hanshi, nor a recongized Menkyo Kaiden. So, please explain me that.
    What are you on about? He doesnt need their approval and neither does the other masters. It should be quite obvious he is not that interested in organisational things. He tends to put his focus on the martial arts part of it so why is that any surprise? I have yet to hear any japanese claiming his Menkyo kaiden certificates are false though. Where did you come up with that?
    Best regards.
    Dear Oniwaban,

    You are chasing too many things at the same time without checking each and everything in detail. You would do well to follow the advices you have been given on this thread. Take one thing at a time and trace the "claim" or "proof" to the root. If you want to question the BRDJ, fine, do so. But first, investigate what is in it and who wrote it. What did they base their writing on and so forth. Now you are trying to shoot birds with anti aircraft guns and it just gets messy and all over the place.

    Regards / Skuggvarg

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