I thought you were talking about my one Wing Chun friend who does not think fighting or fight training is martial arts. No wonder, after all these years, over a decade, he still can't fight.

Self-defense/martial means unarmed-fighting/violence-training at the foundation, the core, from that basics all else follows: the confidence and the courage not to fight when it's not right.

many karate folks are deep into their own delusions, also.