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    Regarding "Ninjer" Bashing

    Hello, and let me first say that I am indeed impressed with alot of what I have seen posted by members of bullshido. Most of you have alot of good advice to offer and really seem to know what you're talking about and I look forward to future conversations.

    However, the purpose of this post, and I'm sure it has been done countless times before, and I'm sure lots of people can't wait to let me know all about it, is to address the overall attitude that practitioners of the Bujinkan seem to always have thrown their way.

    It is my opinion that if someone can't be mature enough to "live and let live" they shouldn't be involved in any martial arts training whatsoever. The inability that I've seen people demonstrate both here and other places to "allow" someone to do what makes them happy without basically attacking them is a sign of a lack of self discipline. Self discipline is something that most martial arts I've seen teach in abundance, and for good reason. If you don't like someone's car, don't buy one like it, but don't kick in the windows either.

    I have seen many posts that regard the Bujinkan as useless in a real situation. I think that it should be seen as good rather than bad that Bujinkan budoka do not find often find themselves in the situation to have to fight. This shows awareness, good judgement, and self control in that they seem to have the ability to either avoid a fight or simply walk away. The fact that Bujinkan budoka say "Our techniques are too deadly for sparring" is in most accounts wrong I will admit. However, it is also wrong to say that an entire art is useless just because they don't participate in full contact brawls. Nearly every martial arts class I have seen weren't full contact. They had contact sparring that deffinately let you know your opponent was there, but it wasn't a full on MMA type match. Safety is key in any martial art, I've never seen ANY class that went full speed all the time, from beginner onward. You would seriously hurt people and if your class is like this I would suggest finding a decent school. Some Bujinkan members spar alive opponents and some don't. It's just the way it is. There really is no need to ridicule someone just because he trains differently than you. If alot of people put more time into their training and less time complaining or researching ninjutsu to put someone else down for no good reason, there would be alot of more competent martial artists.

    As far as "larping" goes I find this point very amusing. Yes, some Bujinkan budoka cross the larping line. Most of them don't. We are called larpers because we wear a gi. So do practitioners of many classic martial arts, yet they aren't larpers...interesting. We wear tabi...kendo budoka wear straw sandals...we train with weapons...a vast majority of styles do so...seems like a double standard to me and just a reason to hurl insults at people for basically no reason. The only aspects that Bujinkan budoka train in that I can think of that may constitute "larping" would be the stealth aspects of ninjutsu. Those are done out of tradition (as are many aspects of ninjutsu) and are not practiced by all. Practitioners of sword arts are engaged in a beutiful and graceful art that is steeped in traditions that are no longer applicable. Are they ridiculed? Not really from what I've seen and they shouldn't be either. Once again, a double standard. This should mean then that any practitioner of any martial art is larping. Larping stands for "Live Action Roleplaying" and if you have ever sparred, you have larped. Two people who are not actually engaged in a real fight but are "practice fighting" (which is what sparring is) are two people who are PRETENDING to be in a real situation. Real people sparring gives it the "Live Action" part and the "Roleplaying" comes from the fact that the two fighters are fighting, but not really fighting (as in not trying to SERIOUSLY hurt one another, go ahead and tell me you intentionally break noses and bones when you spar...I'll believe you I promise!). So in this light, everyone here is a larper, one less thing you should say when laughing at Bujinkan members.

    Also, and I mean no disrespect here, it seems to always be the bjj/mma people, here and elsewhere that seem to relish the opportunity to sling crap at everyone. Not all of them of course, but when you look at the most "informed", "I know everything about fighting" replies to a Bujinkan budoka's posts you see that they practice these arts most frequently. I really don't know why that is, it's just something that I noticed. Perhaps it is because alot of people cross train in those two arts. I will say however that I think it's amusing when MMA fighters critique other martial artists when MMA matches are hilarious to watch. The big, championship matches are nice, but have you ever seen the matches on spike tv, vs, etc? It's great to see the supreme skills of these guys when they fall flat due to a sloppy kick aimed at the other guy's head, then funnier when they lay on their backs and kick at their opponent like a little kid trying to keep an older brother at bay. Or when they happen to take their opponent down, which from what I've seen is a mixture of tackling, wrestling with their opponent's leg for a few seconds, then pushing him over only to lay on top of him and kind of hit him, usually ignoring obvious openings. Nice display of skill when you throw 50 punches/kicks and 10 of them connect. I'm not saying this about all the matches...just most of them.

    The point is that every martial art has strengths and weaknesses. Most people you encounter in bad situations are not going to be trained individuals, and anyone with any martial training has the advantage over someone without it. And I do consider someone who constantly fights in bars, etc to be trained. Experience is a good teacher. An MMA fighter who trains and spars constantly, wins 100 matches, and is well thought of on the bullshido forums could be beaten half to death by a guy in a bar just because the other guy hasn't trained with rules and will gouge your eyes, hit your groin, bite you, stab you etc. I hear alot about ground game from alot of people, but what good is it when it has rules? BJJ and MMA both have rules (eye gouging, groin, biting, no weapons, etc.) and therefore the system of fighting is based upon those rules. You don't have to train for the possibility of an opponent having a knife or protecting your eyes from his fingers because it isn't a part of MMA matches or bjj matches. So don't be surprised if your ground game is defeated by a simple thumb putting out your eye or a fist to your groin, or even a knife or broken bottle in your ribs. But, at the same time don't ridicule the "ninjer" for training in the use of metsubishi, calling him out for nothing, when he is in the same situation and simply throws his eye burning shot of tequila in the bar brawlers face and heads out the door getting away from the situation like he is taught to do. The same goes for ridiculing any practioner of any martial art. Everyone has something they can bring to the table, and at the end of the day, I guess we're ALL (you AND me) just a bunch of larpers anyways!

    Sorry for the long post, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I didn't mean to. I just think we all should look at ourselves before we look at others. Kind of seems like high school where the jocks ("ninjer" haters) pick on the misunderstood kids (the "ninjers") for really no reason at all, besides to make themselves feel superior. After all, what would it hurt to be receptive and possibly learn something from each other rather than argue all the time?

    Let the inevitable flaming begin! I guess I deserve it for dropping blood into shark infested waters.

    #2
    I dunno where to begin. I think forums are shortening my attention span.

    Originally posted by arramil View Post
    It is my opinion that if someone can't be mature enough to "live and let live" they shouldn't be involved in any martial arts training whatsoever. The inability that I've seen people demonstrate both here and other places to "allow" someone to do what makes them happy without basically attacking them is a sign of a lack of self discipline. Self discipline is something that most martial arts I've seen teach in abundance, and for good reason. If you don't like someone's car, don't buy one like it, but don't kick in the windows either.
    Ok Live and let live is directly counter to the purpose of this website. Also you'll find no one has a problem with people that do stuff that has no combat usefulness, as long as they're honest with themself and anyone they might teach about it's usefulness.

    Originally posted by arramil View Post
    I have seen many posts that regard the Bujinkan as useless in a real situation. I think that it should be seen as good rather than bad that Bujinkan budoka do not find often find themselves in the situation to have to fight. This shows awareness, good judgement, and self control in that they seem to have the ability to either avoid a fight or simply walk away.
    It's also completly irrelevant to the bujinkan's combat effectiveness.

    Originally posted by arramil View Post
    The fact that Bujinkan budoka say "Our techniques are too deadly for sparring" is in most accounts wrong I will admit. However, it is also wrong to say that an entire art is useless just because they don't participate in full contact brawls.
    False dichotomy.

    Originally posted by arramil View Post
    There really is no need to ridicule someone just because he trains differently than you.
    Different doesn't get ridiculed, shit does.

    Originally posted by arramil View Post
    If alot of people put more time into their training and less time complaining or researching ninjutsu to put someone else down for no good reason, there would be alot of more competent martial artists.
    Only if that training is effective. Something the bujinkan hasn't really proved.


    Originally posted by arramil View Post
    As far as "larping" goes I find this point very amusing. Yes, some Bujinkan budoka cross the larping line. Most of them don't. We are called larpers because we wear a gi.
    No it's because you pretend to teach people to fight. All the other stuff is just tacked on for laughs

    Originally posted by arramil View Post
    This should mean then that any practitioner of any martial art is larping. Larping stands for "Live Action Roleplaying" and if you have ever sparred, you have larped. Two people who are not actually engaged in a real fight but are "practice fighting" (which is what sparring is) are two people who are PRETENDING to be in a real situation. Real people sparring gives it the "Live Action" part and the "Roleplaying" comes from the fact that the two fighters are fighting, but not really fighting (as in not trying to SERIOUSLY hurt one another, go ahead and tell me you intentionally break noses and bones when you spar...I'll believe you I promise!). So in this light, everyone here is a larper, one less thing you should say when laughing at Bujinkan members.
    No. LARPing is when the outcome is scripted. If uke throws a lunge punch, tori will always succesfully step off the line. If tori punches uke in the nose, uke will always act like a pro wrestler doing a sell job etc.

    Originally posted by arramil View Post
    Also, and I mean no disrespect here, it seems to always be the bjj/mma people, here and elsewhere that seem to relish the opportunity to sling crap at everyone.
    Prove it. Every art has stupid fan boys. It doesn't affect the efffectiveness of the techniques.

    Originally posted by arramil View Post
    I will say however that I think it's amusing when MMA fighters critique other martial artists when MMA matches are hilarious to watch. The big, championship matches are nice, but have you ever seen the matches on spike tv, vs, etc? It's great to see the supreme skills of these guys when they fall flat due to a sloppy kick aimed at the other guy's head, then funnier when they lay on their backs and kick at their opponent like a little kid trying to keep an older brother at bay. Or when they happen to take their opponent down, which from what I've seen is a mixture of tackling, wrestling with their opponent's leg for a few seconds, then pushing him over only to lay on top of him and kind of hit him, usually ignoring obvious openings. Nice display of skill when you throw 50 punches/kicks and 10 of them connect. I'm not saying this about all the matches...just most of them.
    Fights are chaotic and random. Weird things can happen. Bujinkan 2 man kata training has made you think it shouldn't be that way.

    Originally posted by arramil View Post
    The point is that every martial art has strengths and weaknesses.
    Some have more strengths than others. Some have so few strengths they aren't worht the time when you could train something with more to offer.

    Originally posted by arramil View Post
    Most people you encounter in bad situations are not going to be trained individuals, and anyone with any martial training has the advantage over someone without it. And I do consider someone who constantly fights in bars, etc to be trained. Experience is a good teacher.
    Do you see how you just contradicted yourself there? Most people who go making trouble have done it before.

    Originally posted by arramil View Post
    An MMA fighter who trains and spars constantly, wins 100 matches, and is well thought of on the bullshido forums could be beaten half to death by a guy in a bar just because the other guy hasn't trained with rules and will gouge your eyes, hit your groin, bite you, stab you etc. I hear alot about ground game from alot of people, but what good is it when it has rules? BJJ and MMA both have rules (eye gouging, groin, biting, no weapons, etc.) and therefore the system of fighting is based upon those rules. You don't have to train for the possibility of an opponent having a knife or protecting your eyes from his fingers because it isn't a part of MMA matches or bjj matches. So don't be surprised if your ground game is defeated by a simple thumb putting out your eye or a fist to your groin, or even a knife or broken bottle in your ribs.
    There's a thread floating around that adresses this really well. I'll link if i can find it.

    Originally posted by arramil View Post
    But, at the same time don't ridicule the "ninjer" for training in the use of metsubishi, calling him out for nothing, when he is in the same situation and simply throws his eye burning shot of tequila in the bar brawlers face and heads out the door getting away from the situation like he is taught to do.
    Most of the ridiculing is for training inneefectively.

    Originally posted by arramil View Post
    The same goes for ridiculing any practioner of any martial art. Everyone has something they can bring to the table, and at the end of the day, I guess we're ALL (you AND me) just a bunch of larpers anyways!
    No they don't. Some arts fucking SUCK and do nothing to prepare you for a fight.

    Originally posted by arramil View Post
    Sorry for the long post, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I didn't mean to. I just think we all should look at ourselves before we look at others. Kind of seems like high school where the jocks ("ninjer" haters) pick on the misunderstood kids (the "ninjers") for really no reason at all, besides to make themselves feel superior. After all, what would it hurt to be receptive and possibly learn something from each other rather than argue all the time?
    I'm not offended. I think you've got an innacurate feel for the attitude around here. Lurk more and post less. Most people won't respond to a thread like this because they've seen it a hundred times before and think it's another troll job. As an ex bujer I understand the ninjers

    Comment


      #3
      I am a Bujnkan member, very rarely do I get anything worse than good natured stuff from any poster on here. I was made very welcome at a throwdown and was ideo of me ( many punds heavier than now) rolling is about somewhere on this site. My style field says BBT so it's not like I hide it.

      Comment


        #4
        Some of your points are valid, some aren't. A lot of the mma fights on spike tv are hilarious, yeah. You're definitely not appreciating the skill in some of those wrestling takedowns, but they arent exactly the picture of clean technique. Relatively inexperienced fighter + adrenaline = some messiness.

        As for the eye gouge, bite, knife thing:
        Someone with a knife has a pretty good chance of seriously injuring or killing both bjj and bunjinkan blackbelts. Someone with a gun has an even better chance. Unarmed fighting, like it or not, is not especially effective at neutralizing weapons without a whole lot of luck.

        Eye gouging, fishhooking, and groin striking in a grappling match is ridiculous. Find a local bjj/judo place and take an introductory class. You will feel completely and utterly controlled if anyone goes even 50% intensity with you. Grappling is about control, you dont exactly lay there and wait for your opponents to do whatever the hell they want to your face.

        Anyway, welcome to bullshido. If you keep an open mind you'll fit in fine. :)

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by arramil
          Hello, and let me first say that I am indeed impressed with alot of what I have seen posted by members of bullshido. Most of you have alot of good advice to offer and really seem to know what you're talking about and I look forward to future conversations.
          Yes. We have many instructors and people with real experience. In fact we usually don't take people seriously till they post competition footage or throwdown footage. In fact your in West Virginia, we are having a throwdown in the DC metro area next month. You are more than welcome. There will be people there that will do full MMA, kickboxing, boxing, grappling-only and blade sparring. Its all for fun, leave you ego at home.

          Originally posted by arramil
          However, the purpose of this post, and I'm sure it has been done countless times before, and I'm sure lots of people can't wait to let me know all about it, is to address the overall attitude that practitioners of the Bujinkan seem to always have thrown their way.
          Before I start, MUCH of it is well deserved. While we pick on dressing up like ninja, some of the stuff the Bujinkan "elite" spewed on forums is just pathetic. If you want an example look up Ben Cole and his Kukan Balls.

          Originally posted by arramil
          It is my opinion that if someone can't be mature enough to "live and let live" they shouldn't be involved in any martial arts training whatsoever. The inability that I've seen people demonstrate both here and other places to "allow" someone to do what makes them happy without basically attacking them is a sign of a lack of self discipline. Self discipline is something that most martial arts I've seen teach in abundance, and for good reason. If you don't like someone's car, don't buy one like it, but don't kick in the windows either.
          Thats not the point, if someone is not hurting anymore, we do Live and Let LARP. The problem is know Bujinkan instructors passing themselves off as "Combat Instructors" for LEO and other groups. Then on top of that they often attack Jujutsu Instructors and other actual combat instructors for not teaching "the real stuff." All of these while trying to imitate a 70 year old man. That would be ok if they could prove there stuff if effective, however they refuse to spar or do anything that would "test" their technique. This training methodology as been proven to be bullshit and it is that we attack. Also I know some Bujinkan teaching gun defenses, I cannot even comment on that.


          Originally posted by arramil
          I have seen many posts that regard the Bujinkan as useless in a real situation. I think that it should be seen as good rather than bad that Bujinkan budoka do not find often find themselves in the situation to have to fight. This shows awareness, good judgement, and self control in that they seem to have the ability to either avoid a fight or simply walk away. The fact that Bujinkan budoka say "Our techniques are too deadly for sparring" is in most accounts wrong I will admit. However, it is also wrong to say that an entire art is useless just because they don't participate in full contact brawls. Nearly every martial arts class I have seen weren't full contact. They had contact sparring that deffinately let you know your opponent was there, but it wasn't a full on MMA type match. Safety is key in any martial art, I've never seen ANY class that went full speed all the time, from beginner onward. You would seriously hurt people and if your class is like this I would suggest finding a decent school. Some Bujinkan members spar alive opponents and some don't. It's just the way it is. There really is no need to ridicule someone just because he trains differently than you. If alot of people put more time into their training and less time complaining or researching ninjutsu to put someone else down for no good reason, there would be alot of more competent martial artists.
          Alive training is not Full Contact. I doubt people that train alive get into street brawl often or at all. Its the fact on that day when you are blind sided by a punch, are you going to rely on your "ninja sense" and panic that he threw a cross and you are trying to figure out how to modify you musha dori to work off a cross or will you reactive naturally because you been hit this punch repetitively in sparring and its nothing new. Here is an example I used earlier: You cannot learn to do anything without doing it, that includes fighting. So unless youare going out like Batman and fighting people in "the streets" sparring is the best most of us will get. For example: While I am swimming in a pool, Bujinkan Ninja are standing on the side mimicking a swimming stroke. When asked why they are not getting in the pool to prove it works, they calmly tell you that the pool isn't real like the ocean, there is no current and their swimming only works in the ocean. Who is a better swimmer?

          Originally posted by arramil
          As far as "larping" goes I find this point very amusing. Yes, some Bujinkan budoka cross the larping line. Most of them don't. We are called larpers because we wear a gi. So do practitioners of many classic martial arts, yet they aren't larpers...interesting. We wear tabi...kendo budoka wear straw sandals...we train with weapons...a vast majority of styles do so...seems like a double standard to me and just a reason to hurl insults at people for basically no reason. The only aspects that Bujinkan budoka train in that I can think of that may constitute "larping" would be the stealth aspects of ninjutsu. Those are done out of tradition (as are many aspects of ninjutsu) and are not practiced by all. Practitioners of sword arts are engaged in a beutiful and graceful art that is steeped in traditions that are no longer applicable. Are they ridiculed? Not really from what I've seen and they shouldn't be either. Once again, a double standard. This should mean then that any practitioner of any martial art is larping. Larping stands for "Live Action Roleplaying" and if you have ever sparred, you have larped. Two people who are not actually engaged in a real fight but are "practice fighting" (which is what sparring is) are two people who are PRETENDING to be in a real situation. Real people sparring gives it the "Live Action" part and the "Roleplaying" comes from the fact that the two fighters are fighting, but not really fighting (as in not trying to SERIOUSLY hurt one another, go ahead and tell me you intentionally break noses and bones when you spar...I'll believe you I promise!). So in this light, everyone here is a larper, one less thing you should say when laughing at Bujinkan members.
          Kendo-ka spar, Jujutsu-ka spar, Bujinkan does not spar. In fact most Bujinkan are more interested in "being ninja" then learning to fight. In fact they love the Bujinkan because they are being fed the kool-aid that they are learning to battle evil samurai without doing any fight training (because that hurts). Having someone trying to punch and lock you up and you counter and trying to do the same back is fighting. Having someone throw a lunge punch and freezing there so you can do a pre-cheorgraphed technique, is Larping.

          Originally posted by arramil
          Also, and I mean no disrespect here, it seems to always be the bjj/mma people, here and elsewhere that seem to relish the opportunity to sling crap at everyone. Not all of them of course, but when you look at the most "informed", "I know everything about fighting" replies to a Bujinkan budoka's posts you see that they practice these arts most frequently. I really don't know why that is, it's just something that I noticed. Perhaps it is because alot of people cross train in those two arts. I will say however that I think it's amusing when MMA fighters critique other martial artists when MMA matches are hilarious to watch. The big, championship matches are nice, but have you ever seen the matches on spike tv, vs, etc? It's great to see the supreme skills of these guys when they fall flat due to a sloppy kick aimed at the other guy's head, then funnier when they lay on their backs and kick at their opponent like a little kid trying to keep an older brother at bay. Or when they happen to take their opponent down, which from what I've seen is a mixture of tackling, wrestling with their opponent's leg for a few seconds, then pushing him over only to lay on top of him and kind of hit him, usually ignoring obvious openings. Nice display of skill when you throw 50 punches/kicks and 10 of them connect. I'm not saying this about all the matches...just most of them.
          Two items here. First BJJ nutriders suck, we hate them too. All arts have them. The BJJers are just worse because their stuff works. Second, you seem not to have a good grasp at MMA. You see its two people trying to beat each other. Kicks will be blocked and techniques evaded and countered. That is what happens when you have two people of high skill attacking each other. I am sure if one guys try one strike and froze there till the other guy was done with his kata it would be the high percentage you are looking for.

          Originally posted by arramil
          The point is that every martial art has strengths and weaknesses. Most people you encounter in bad situations are not going to be trained individuals, and anyone with any martial training has the advantage over someone without it. And I do consider someone who constantly fights in bars, etc to be trained. Experience is a good teacher. An MMA fighter who trains and spars constantly, wins 100 matches, and is well thought of on the bullshido forums could be beaten half to death by a guy in a bar just because the other guy hasn't trained with rules and will gouge your eyes, hit your groin, bite you, stab you etc. I hear alot about ground game from alot of people, but what good is it when it has rules? BJJ and MMA both have rules (eye gouging, groin, biting, no weapons, etc.) and therefore the system of fighting is based upon those rules. You don't have to train for the possibility of an opponent having a knife or protecting your eyes from his fingers because it isn't a part of MMA matches or bjj matches. So don't be surprised if your ground game is defeated by a simple thumb putting out your eye or a fist to your groin, or even a knife or broken bottle in your ribs. But, at the same time don't ridicule the "ninjer" for training in the use of metsubishi, calling him out for nothing, when he is in the same situation and simply throws his eye burning shot of tequila in the bar brawlers face and heads out the door getting away from the situation like he is taught to do. The same goes for ridiculing any practioner of any martial art. Everyone has something they can bring to the table, and at the end of the day, I guess we're ALL (you AND me) just a bunch of larpers anyways!

          Serious question. Who has a better chance of defending themselves: A MMA fighter that spars and fights regularly (abeit with rules) OR a Guy dressed as a Ninja who does fake eye gouging and bites a willing partner? I've had a Bujinkan once try to bite his way out of an armbar, I just cranked harder. I also had a Bujinkan try to pinch his way out of top mount, he got choked for his efforts. Dirty fighting doesn't make up for lack of technique.

          Originally posted by arramil
          Sorry for the long post, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I didn't mean to. I just think we all should look at ourselves before we look at others. Kind of seems like high school where the jocks ("ninjer" haters) pick on the misunderstood kids (the "ninjers") for really no reason at all, besides to make themselves feel superior. After all, what would it hurt to be receptive and possibly learn something from each other rather than argue all the time?

          Let the inevitable flaming begin! I guess I deserve it for dropping blood into shark infested waters.
          Come to the throwdown, I will educate you.

          Comment


            #6
            In the few seconds I could still be bothered to read your post before I gave up and sighed a heavy sigh, I saw your 'live and let live' comments.

            This is contrary to what Bullshido is all about. If people are training in a truly ineffective style of Martial Arts and believe themselves to be prepared to defend themselves from Joe Mugger, should they not be educated? Should the frauds who teach them this shit not be exposed?

            It has been stated many times by many posters that if someone wants to LARP and know it is exactly that, then good luck to them. Not everyone wants to fight and some enjoy the whole role playing fantasy aspect. It's when people think that they can protect themselves in a violent encounter that we cannot sit back and 'live and let live'.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Plasma View Post
              Serious question. Who has a better chance of defending themselves: A MMA fighter that spars and fights regularly (abeit with rules) OR a Guy dressed as a Ninja who does fake eye gouging and bites a willing partner? I've had a Bujinkan once try to bite his way out of an armbar, I just cranked harder. I also had a Bujinkan try to pinch his way out of top mount, he got choked for his efforts. Dirty fighting doesn't make up for lack of technique.
              I'd like to add to this. If a Bujinkan is happy to use dirty tactics, he shouldn't be surprised if an MMA guy is as well. You really don't want to be caught in a lock and the BBJ chap is happy to pull your eyes out, becouse his training, proven by hard sparring/rolling, is perfect for that kind of thing.

              That works for all of the styles that are effective. They're nasty enough without dirty fighting, and that's where Ninjutsu, WC etc fall down. They don't have the hard training to even implement the eye gouges etc they're so fond of.

              I've never understood the 'dirty' styles critisism of hard sparring as unrealistic. With MT, for example, you can spar full contact (or compete, obviously) and can punch another person as hard as you can, with full intent. With 'dirty' based styles, you can't actually bite someone or throat strike or eye gouge, not with full intent.

              Bujinkan, WC etc deserve the LARP description, it's perfect. Not only is the method of delivering dirty moves shakey but the golden ticket of biting etc cannot even be trained fully. It's a double LARP.

              Comment


                #8
                At yesterday's Mega Throwdown, I rolled with a tabi-wearing ninja that had never grappled before and gushed with innocent, doe-eyed gratitude at my instruction and help. The whole experience left me with such a warm glow of humanity that for this one special day, I will not say a single mean thing to you, Arramil. Not one ninja joke. At all.

                Originally posted by arramil View Post
                Hello, and let me first say that I am indeed impressed with alot of what I have seen posted by members of bullshido. Most of you have alot of good advice to offer and really seem to know what you're talking about and I look forward to future conversations.
                Me too, but like 99% of people who come in here with "Bujinkan" in their style field and open with an 8,000 word essay tend to leave in tears within 7 posts.

                Don't be one of them.

                It is my opinion that if someone can't be mature enough to "live and let live" they shouldn't be involved in any martial arts training whatsoever. The inability that I've seen people demonstrate both here and other places to "allow" someone to do what makes them happy without basically attacking them is a sign of a lack of self discipline.
                So if I tell a heroin user he should stop shooting smack into his veins even though he enjoys it because it's really bad for him, I'm being undisciplined?

                I have seen many posts that regard the Bujinkan as useless in a real situation. I think that it should be seen as good rather than bad that Bujinkan budoka do not find often find themselves in the situation to have to fight. This shows awareness, good judgement, and self control in that they seem to have the ability to either avoid a fight or simply walk away.
                I was going to make a joke about the real reason being that all remaining ninjas are 35 year old Jewish accountants living in affluent suburbs miles away from danger, but I didn't want to insult the fine sons of Abraham by associating them with a cabal of shadowy assassins.

                No, the real problem is "being able to fight" is completely different from "being good at avoiding fights". One requires years of hard training. The other requires functional reasoning and people skills.

                However, it is also wrong to say that an entire art is useless just because they don't participate in full contact brawls. Nearly every martial arts class I have seen weren't full contact. They had contact sparring that deffinately let you know your opponent was there, but it wasn't a full on MMA type match. Safety is key in any martial art, I've never seen ANY class that went full speed all the time, from beginner onward. You would seriously hurt people and if your class is like this I would suggest finding a decent school.
                That's fine, no one here said you have to be bashing skulls in every single class. Our bigger problem is with schools that never spar, never resist, or do so in such a perfunctory way as to have no empirical method of verifying efficacy. Fighting isn't poetry; it's not a wholly subjective field where everyone's opinion is equally valid. A martial artist that doesn't fight is like a scientist that never performs experiments but has endlessly beautiful theories about how the world should work.


                As far as "larping" goes I find this point very amusing. Yes, some Bujinkan budoka cross the larping line. Most of them don't. We are called larpers because we wear a gi. So do practitioners of many classic martial arts, yet they aren't larpers...interesting. We wear tabi...kendo budoka wear straw sandals...we train with weapons...a vast majority of styles do so...seems like a double standard to me and just a reason to hurl insults at people for basically no reason. The only aspects that Bujinkan budoka train in that I can think of that may constitute "larping" would be the stealth aspects of ninjutsu. Those are done out of tradition (as are many aspects of ninjutsu) and are not practiced by all. Practitioners of sword arts are engaged in a beutiful and graceful art that is steeped in traditions that are no longer applicable. Are they ridiculed? Not really from what I've seen and they shouldn't be either. Once again, a double standard. This should mean then that any practitioner of any martial art is larping. Larping stands for "Live Action Roleplaying" and if you have ever sparred, you have larped. Two people who are not actually engaged in a real fight but are "practice fighting" (which is what sparring is) are two people who are PRETENDING to be in a real situation. Real people sparring gives it the "Live Action" part and the "Roleplaying" comes from the fact that the two fighters are fighting, but not really fighting (as in not trying to SERIOUSLY hurt one another, go ahead and tell me you intentionally break noses and bones when you spar...I'll believe you I promise!). So in this light, everyone here is a larper, one less thing you should say when laughing at Bujinkan members.
                No one calls you a LARPer because you wear a gi. Most of the people on this board wear a gi, myself included. We're even willing to give a pass on the tabi...sometimes.

                But if you seriously believe fighting at light-to-medium contact is the same thing as dressing in full-on historical gear and sneaking through the woods carrying fake swords and pretending to avoid Nazi samurais or whatever, you must exist in some quantum state where everything is everything else and no definitions matter because those are definitely two separate concepts.

                I will say however that I think it's amusing when MMA fighters critique other martial artists when MMA matches are hilarious to watch. The big, championship matches are nice, but have you ever seen the matches on spike tv, vs, etc? It's great to see the supreme skills of these guys when they fall flat due to a sloppy kick aimed at the other guy's head, then funnier when they lay on their backs and kick at their opponent like a little kid trying to keep an older brother at bay. Or when they happen to take their opponent down, which from what I've seen is a mixture of tackling, wrestling with their opponent's leg for a few seconds, then pushing him over only to lay on top of him and kind of hit him, usually ignoring obvious openings. Nice display of skill when you throw 50 punches/kicks and 10 of them connect. I'm not saying this about all the matches...just most of them.
                You've just raised a huge red flag about your own training. Your awkward phrasing of "tackling or wrestling for a leg" demonstrates a complete ignorance of basic grappling technique and your befuddlement at the "sloppiness" of technique sounds like someone with an unrealistic view of the chaos of real fighting.

                Generally, even C-list MMA fighters are, at the very least, tough and well-rounded. You don't have to be Chuck Liddell to kick the vast majority of unkicked human asses.

                An MMA fighter who trains and spars constantly, wins 100 matches, and is well thought of on the bullshido forums could be beaten half to death by a guy in a bar just because the other guy hasn't trained with rules and will gouge your eyes, hit your groin, bite you, stab you etc. I hear alot about ground game from alot of people, but what good is it when it has rules? BJJ and MMA both have rules (eye gouging, groin, biting, no weapons, etc.)
                Oh Jesus dude, you're like the 500th person to make this exact same argument, so I'm just going to give you the bullet point rebuttal:

                1) Superior positioning skills (i.e. being a better grappler) makes it easier for the MMA guy to bite or gouge or otherwise fight like a huge girl than the mythical, superpowered "street fighter".

                2) The fact that being poked in the eye hurts is hardly a trade secret and is impossible to train realistically in any art, so unless you literally put on goggles and poke each other in the eyes, we're all equally incompetent at eye gouging and biting and soforth.

                3) If you can't hit a guy in a target as big as the face with a weapon as big as your fist, how are you going to hit a target as small as the eye with a weapon as small as your fingertip?

                4) The MMA fighter trains, on a daily basis, to let people take turns sitting on his chest and punch him in the face. Biting, scratching, and hair-pulling are fairly low on the Threatdown.

                4b) Incidentally, a couple years ago I was rolling with this dude that actually did bite me. When I looked at him in amazement--I was wearing clothes, as most people tend to do, so it felt like a pissed-off Pomeranian's teeth--he smiled and said "Just to let you know it's there!". I immediately armbarred him and said "Just to let you know it's there!". Keep in mind, this was a low-intensity class with no adrenaline dump to speak of.

                Sorry for the long post, and I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I didn't mean to. I just think we all should look at ourselves before we look at others. Kind of seems like high school where the jocks ("ninjer" haters) pick on the misunderstood kids (the "ninjers") for really no reason at all, besides to make themselves feel superior. After all, what would it hurt to be receptive and possibly learn something from each other rather than argue all the time?
                Welcome to the Internet.
                Last edited by Boyd; 9/07/2009 3:49pm, .

                Comment


                  #9
                  OP: Stop doing that ninjer shit and start doing some real Goddamn training. You'll feel better. Or just piss off.

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                    #10
                    Christ on a crutch.

                    Can I just point out that 'ninjer' refers specifically to those that are all out LARPers living in fantasy dream land. Ninja refer to people that no longer exist, but the ninjer likes to make believe he is, and people studying BBT et. al. are mostly training a gendai budo primarily based on various koryu with some 'other' stuff.

                    If BBT isn't trained alive etc, that is one problem, it's a whole different issue to LARPing in stagehands clothes.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Thanks for the replies

                      From what I've read in these replies it seems that some apologies and some clarification is in order. I didn't know that Bujinkan instructors and other Bujinkan members come to these forums to put other arts down, or to act as though they are better. This is wrong and I don't believe the Bujinkan system is any better than any other martial art.

                      However, from what I've read in the replies to my original post it seems that alot of people here think poorly of Bujinkan technique to the point that it is common belief that all Bujinkan techniques are worthless. The reason most people give is because it's all choreographed. Nearly every martial art I have ever seen train use choreographed drills at slower speed for training. My experience with TKD and karate have been very similar to training in the Bujinkan. The other two arts did include sparring, and my training group also engages in sparring. I don't mean drills that are choreographed, we do use those as every martial art does sometimes during training. We use the same gloves they use in MMA fights so we don't SERIOUSLY hurt each other and we follow the same "tap out" rule as other martial arts do. I know full well that other Bujinkan dojo's or groups don't spar at all, and I can't say that I agree with their methods. Some people are fine with not sparring, and I am also fine with them not sparring. None of my business. When we spar we also mix it up, rather than only using Bujinkan techniques. I will say that I believe sparring as close to a real situation as possible is the ONLY way to be fully prepared for it. However I will also say I don't think there is anything wrong with the techniques of the Bujinkan, they share techniques with alot of other martial arts, from aikido, judo, jujutsu, etc. It is ONLY because someone doesn't train those techniques for a real situation that they will be ineffective, not the techniques themselves.

                      The idea of larping is still funny because yes, it does mean "Live Action Roleplaying" and if you've ever seen a larping event they aren't choreographed at all. It's actually alot of funny chaos. They just PRETEND to fight....or SPAR. So technically everyone here is a larper. You, me, all of us.

                      As far as my original post goes, I am sorry if it came off as though I were trying to start a fight. I was just up at 3am and every site or forum I would go to, read a Bujinkan post, watch a Bujinkan video, the comments or replies are just rude. No need to take it out on people here.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        You misunderstand LARPing, LARPing means playing make believe, if two medieval LARPers were trying to cut each other fine, but they don't, they try and hit each other swords, they have no intention of real damage.

                        Pretending to fight, is not pretending, if one guy really wins.

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                          #13
                          larping eh

                          Well, by your own example if the two larpers are "make believe" fighting meaning that they are pretending to fight, and have no intention of doing any REAL damage then you have just summed up sparring. Two people pretend to fight (if it ain't a real fight it's pretending!) and neither of them are out to cause any actual damage to their buddy (you won't intentionally break his nose or his arm).

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Is that why all boxers have such lovely straight noses? Or why my arms dont extend as far as they used to?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Information on this ninjer here

                              Just so I don't get lumped with other people I would like to clarify a few things.

                              One) I spar regularly and as hard as I can without injury. I do train at full speed with techniques I am competent enough with to do so. We pull punches to avoid injury. If you have any advice please give it, I'd love to know how to train better.

                              Two) I believe fully that sparring is essential for preparing for the real thing.

                              Three) I have never "larped" in my life. The whole concept of puttin' on the outfit w/ the mask and the fake swords, stealthing around places is stupid. I don't train stealth aspects as they are not applicable. Atleast not applicable to me because I doubt I'd ever have to use them.

                              Four) Many traditional aspects of the Bujinkan and alot of other martial arts are not really applicable today. We just do it for traditions sake.

                              Thanks!

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