Aikido Supermen

[DerAuslander]

In the first place; we need to understand that the Korean culture is not very fond of the Japanese. This is understandable in light of the many things the Japanese did to the Korean people. This is not to insult or brand all Japanese people as a whole, but rather those that led their country for many years. This cultural situation can be found in numerous Korean translations of various Japanese martial arts.

You're telling this to me?

He has also noted after watching a Hapkido demonstration:

A Hapgido demonstration?

By whom?

Which Hapgido group?

You are aware that Hapgido has vastly changed since Choi Yongsul first began teaching?

“Many of the techniques are alien, not only to the Daito-ryu line, but to all Japanese martial arts. It is certainly true that Hapkido from both native Korean and Chinese sources.” (3)

Various Hapgido groups have developed and changed techniques completely since Choi began teaching. Many of them contribute these to "ancient Korean arts" and deny any connection to Japan.

However, when we strip away these to find the root & look at what Choi Yongsul taught, we find it had absolutely no resemblance to any pre-Occupation Korean art, be it Taegyeon or Ssireum, the two Korean grappling styles.

Further, these techniques in no way resemble or use the same joint-locking mechanics as found in Chinese-derived Korean kung fu systems, geumna/qinna.

What do they look like?

DRAJJ.

Amdur based his conclusions off of extremely limited research...when it comes to KMA history, he doesn't know what he's talking about. He has neither the historic resources, nor the linguistic ability to properly research this subject.

It is absolutely true that there is little actual evidence such as records listing Chloi Yongsul's name in any DRAJJ registry. However, his presence in Japan at the time is documented, as his return to Korea much later. It is highly doubtful that he was ever a proper student of DRAJJ or received any sort of high-level training in DRAJJ. However, the techniques HE TAUGHT (not those who came after him) bear absolutely no resemblance to any native Korean technique of the time. They do bear a strong, and sometimes literal resemblance to DRAJJ.

Documentation:



From DRAJJ's own mouth to God's ears.

Tripp, this has absolutely nothing to do with your issues with Aikido. I'd recommend leaving it alone until you actually have the ability to research it properly.

And why the hell do you care about Chado?

[Mtripp]

You know, the internet is an interesting place. If allows people to hide in their room and be as disrespectful and rude as they wish to be.

Let me quickly do as I said I would:

Fact: Judo was the McDojo in the 1950's/1960"s. The establishment of local, state, and national shiai ended the McDojo's in Judo. So where would the people go?

Fact: The late Dr. Ashida, who would know, whenever he was asked about Aikido always said "It's where old Judo people go to die."

Fact: Gene Lebell was at that Shiai Smith writes about, and he has a very different opinion of what took place. Truth is, people were taking dives for Mifune the last 10 years of his life. It was viewed as a respect thing.

Bottom line: The unbendable arm, the you can't move me or lift me, etc, were all done ages ago by "The Georgia Magnet." Look it up. Aikido simply does not work in the context of a real fight, period.

I have more, but I have better things to do with my time than to be a dart board for people lost in a fog of the unknown.

[Mtripp]

[Sophist]

Bah, no edit. Am rereading and realising that 1point2 was asking for AJJ sites, whereas the ones I posted are mostly aikido/gendai jujitsu sites using the story as a general "judo isn't all that!" argument. Sorry about that.

[Da Pope]

http://www.oomoto.or.jp/English/index-en.html

[Sophist]

Can you post a few AJJ sites that claim Saigo was a DRAJJ expert? Please refrain from painting every AJJ person as believing the same things. DCS has done nothing to show he "want it both ways."

Here are a few more.

[DCS]

I study Wado, and I know the founder of our art held Ueshiba in high esteem, and as he got older, began to add some of the Aikido concepts into our style of Karate. I'd like to have a more realistic picture of the man than what most of the books say about him.

Wado founder was also a Shindō Yōshin-ryū practitioneer so he mixed old school jujutsu and karate.

At the time Wado was officially registered as a martial arts school at the Dai Nippon Butokukai (late 30's) Ueshiba was held in high regard by karate masters like Konishi (chairman of the screening committee of the Dai Nippon Botokukai that reviewed all licensing applications in Karate Jutsu) so it's not strange that Ōtsuka, being a koryu jujutstu guy himself and Konishi training partner, started to add aiki concepts to his art.

does anyone know a lot about the religious group ueshiba joined( i think it was named omoto-kyo)? are there any teachings that enhance "force of personality"(charisma, etc.) in that group?

Not sure about that but there are (or were at that time) shamanistic/ascetic practises in that cult that seemed to be used to trigger in the practitioneers some kind of what is called today in sports psichology "being in the zone" or "state of flow". Of course, back then and in that socio cultural environment, being in the zone was easily seen and underestood as a spiritual-religious experience.

More (serious) questions welcome.

[El Neko]

Hey Coach Tripp, I posted this a while back, but is worth repeating regarding the connection between Saigo and Daito Ryu

Now, we need to see what possible connection Sokaku had with Shiro Saigo, to determine if it is reasonable to assume that Shiro Saigo ever learned Daito-ryu.

The connection is to be found in the name of Tanomo Saigo (1830-1903 who later changed his name to Chikanori Hoshina). Shiro Saigo was the illegitimate son of Tanomo Saigo according to some sources, who in any case adopted Shiro.

Chikanori was the chief councillor and governor-general of the Aizu clan. He was thus a quite politically powerful and important man. It is an historical fact that Sokaku Takeda spent some time with Chikanori, learning what Sokaku called "Oshikiuchi". Leaving what that may have been until later, the theory is that Soemon taught, not his son Sokichi, who would teach Sokaku... but that Soemon taught Chikanori, who admittedly *did* teach Sokaku Takeda something.

The problems with this theory are several, and the main problem is that the deduction is being made that Chikanori is a martial arts master not based on historical evidence, but on the fact that he is closely connected to two martial geniuses. His son Shiro Saigo, and the founder of Daito-ryu, Sokaku Takeda. This seems to be akin to placing the cart before the horse. As Stanley Pranin points out:

"Chikanori Hoshina's life is well-documented and even his diary has been preserved. Hoshina scholars have, however, found no evidence of Chikanori having undergone any extensive martial arts training or having taught such arts. Had Chikanori been a skilled martial artist in his own right, surely some record of his talents and exploits would have survived." (Ref #5)

If you accept that Chikanori was *not* a martial artist, and non-Daito-ryu history certainly doesn't proclaim him one, then what is "Oshikiuchi"? It is the testimony of Sokaku Takeda that he learned Oshikiuchi from Chikanori. One of the better discussions of this point is:

"A further unresolved issue is the matter of the term used historically to refer to Daito-ryu techniques transmitted within the Aizu clan. Tokimune and others have written that Sokaku learned secret techniques called oshikiuchi and that it was these arts that form the essence of Daito-ryu. The characters used for oshikiuchi, "o" (an honorific) + "shiki" (ceremony) + "uchi" (inside),, represent a rather curious combination and do not convey any obvious meaning. They were probably recorded based on the oral testimony of Sokaku who was himself illiterate. One theory is that the correct Chinese characters are actually,, "o" (an honorific) + "shikii" (threshold) + "uchi" (inside). According to this view, what was actually referred to as oshikiuchi were not martial techniques at all, but rather the court etiquette or manners that trusted subjects of the inner circle who were allowed "inside the threshold" were expected to observe. If this is indeed the case, what Chikanori Hoshina taught Sokaku during the latter's visits had to do with matters of samurai etiquette." (Ref #6)

Another reference to this same point is:

(Ref #7)

(For those who don't know any Japanese, the difference between the verbal pronunciation of "Oshikiuchi" and "Oshikiiuchi" is small! It's a lengthened "i" sound, instead of the short 'i' sound. Japanese is a language where it can frequently not be possible to know the meaning of a word without seeing the written form.)

So if Chikanori is not known to history as a martial artist, and did indeed teach samurai etiquette to Sokaku Takeda, we are left without anyone to teach Daito-ryu to Chikanori's son, Shiro Saigo. Shiro Saigo did not have any known historical contact with Sokaku Takeda...

No BS MMA and Martial Arts - View Single Post - A thought

http://bestjudo.com/article15.shtml

EDIT: I saw somebody already brought it up.... Fuck!!!

[2Many]

Can you post a few AJJ sites that claim Saigo was a DRAJJ expert?

Exhibit 1:

http://www.zenbudokai.com/twentiethjj.html

Of course, it must be realized that Kano's Judo achieved it's notoriety because of Aikijujutsu. It seems that Kano was an excellent Jujutsuka himself, but felt that in order to prove that his new for was "undefeatable" he would need to employ an "undefeatable" representative of his new art form. This man was Saigo Shida who changed his name to Saigo Shiro (1867 - 1922).

...Shiro was a master of Daito-Ryu at a young age and was trained for the headmastership of the Takeda tradition, but was recruited by Kano to be his "showman" for the Kodokan system. This is basically why Takeda Sokaku became Daito-Ryu's headmaster. ... In the contests set up between the Kodokan and the area Jujutsu schools, Saigo easily defeated all opponents...

Saigo Shiro, perhaps one of the world's greatest Jujutsuka died on 23 December 1922 at the age of 57.

There is an odd contradiction on their page. They say Saigo was 57 when he died in 1922. The date of his death is correct, and corroborated by others, including Kano. But if he died then at age 57, he would have been born around 1865. He was a master of Daito-ryu as an infant, it seems!

-------------

Exhibit 2:

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/4856/history.html

It seems that Kano not that good a Jujutsuka himself, and felt that in order to prove that his new judo was "undefeatable" he would need to employ an "undefeatable" representative of his new art form. This "undefetable man" was Daito Ryu 's Saigo Shida who later changed his name to Saigo Shiro (1867 - 1922) , not a student of judo, but of Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu, who was adopted by Tanomo Saigo the grandmaster of Daito-Ryu and who taught him the secrets of this great art of Daito-Ryu Aiki Jujutsu ...

The amount of BS in this exhibit reeks greater than a fertilizer factory.

[Yoj]

Mr Tripp, have you read Amdurs "Duelling with O'sensei"? It's been years since I read it, but i recall it being an interesting read. FWIW he also has a new book coming out soon that also looks good.

[1point2]

<<<Around the XX century 30's. I'll look and give you a more accurate timeframe.>>>

Yes, that is the claim today.

<<<Saigo (born 1866) enrolled the kodokan as a teenager (in 1882). Him being some kind of AJJ master is totally BS.>>>

Really? You might want to read what they say at the Aikijujutsu sites. Most claim the only reason Judo won in 1886 was because of the daito-ryu master Saigo being on Kano's team. So, now he was not a master, and oly a lowely teenager? You guys really want it both ways.

<<<Saigo was removed from kodokan in 1899. Kano sent his guys to study under Ueshiba in the 30's.>>>

So he taught no one while he was there? The entire time he was there he did not share the techniques, and Kano saw no value in them until 30 years later? Oh, wait, he didn't know any of them, even though he was the #1 guy at the Kodokan to fight in dojo bashing matches.

Are you making a counter-claim, with evidence, for the transition from daito-ryu to DRAJJ?

Can you post a few AJJ sites that claim Saigo was a DRAJJ expert? Please refrain from painting every AJJ person as believing the same things. DCS has done nothing to show he "want it both ways."

[Dsimon3387]

Unfortunately I cannot post at the end of this thread, I am having problems posting onthis site and reading threads but I want to respond to a couple of points and people on this thread:

first the Hapkido link is that the founder trained his house servant, a Korean in the art, that is the claim... there is a line of Hapkido that is in fact very diato ryu like from that gentleman.

M Tripp I don't know who is better... I don't care. I have seen talented guys who come from Diato Ryu Judo and other arts... admittadly not many Aikido, but I am told they exist.

Sure there is a lot of myth about Morhey but Moreshiba was by all reliable accounts a martial arts prodigy, way before he was doing Aikido I may add. To debate this is foolish. Kano would have every reason to send people to study with him. He was a talented Diato ryu guy and Kukishin guy and he was feracious on the mat...no he was not always a peacenic.

There is no reason to diparage Morhay... People fucked Aikido up and his need to evolve had a lot to do with that... so be it.

[FictionPimp]

I find this thread interesting. Nothing to set...yet.

[DerAuslander]

Why does Hapkido claim daito-ryu roots when

1. There is ZERO evidence of any Daito-ryu master going to Korea
2. They HATE the Japanese?

Hapkido claims Daito-ryu origins because it originated in Daito-ryu.

Next question?

So, next question; Is the Tea Ceremony about getting a cup of tea?

As probably the only person on Bullshido who practices Chado, I'm going to say [CENSORED].

What's your point?

[TheMightyMcClaw]

does anyone know a lot about the religious group ueshiba joined( i think it was named omoto-kyo)? are there any teachings that enhance "force of personality"(charisma, etc.) in that group?

I do!
We studied the Omotokyo fairly extensively in a modern Japanese history class I took several years ago. We really only focused on it from inception to the Russo-Japanese war, so I'm less familiar with how it developed in the Taisho and Showa era. All of this is being cited from my memory of lectures and course packets, so you should do your own research in case my memory is faulty.
So, back in the Meiji period, there was this impoverished old woman named Deguchi Nao.

Anyways, one day she was walking back from gathering rags or firewood or some other commodity that she was selling, when she was possessed by a spirit named Ushitora No Konjin, who claimed to be some type of Great God of the Universe Who's About to Come Down From Heaven and Wreck Everything Up So He Can Create a Utopia.
So Nao doesn't really buy Ushitora's story, and just thinks he's a fox spirit trying to play a trick on her. Because, y'know, that's the type of bullshit a fox spirit would try to do. She goes to a local temple to have ol' Ushitora exorcised, but to no avail. Over time, she eventually buys Ushitora no Konjin's story, and starts preaching the good word of the imminent unmaking and remaking of the world.
1904 rolls around, and Japan and Russia start lobbing shells at one another's battleships. Nao prophecisizes that Japanese is going to get it's ass royally kicked in 1905 and Russia will win the war, because apparently she was a rabble-rouser like that. What's more, Japan's defeat would be shortly followed by Ushitora no Konjin making good on his promise to destroy the world and create a new one.
Well, as we all know, Japan didn't lose the war, and what's more, the world is still alive and kicking a hundred years later Ushitora no Konjin-free. Nao issues an official statement of "j/k, the world's still isn't gonna end for a while yet", and the Omotokyo continues spreadin' the good word.
I don't know to much besides that, aside from the fact that they really like Esperanto, and publish most of their religious documents in it. If I'm not mistaken, Ludwik Łazarz Zamenhof (it's creator), is revered as some sort of saint or otherwise holy dude.
I'm not sure if there still big on the whole millenial world's about to end thing, or if they've toned that down across the century. Given the focus on an imminent future Utopia, I'm not at all surprised the emphasis in Aikido on "harmonizing" with your opponent instead of, y'know, fighting them.