Aikido Supermen

[Mtripp]

You know, the internet is an interesting place. If allows people to hide in their room and be as disrespectful and rude as they wish to be.

Let me quickly do as I said I would:

Fact: Judo was the McDojo in the 1950's/1960"s. The establishment of local, state, and national shiai ended the McDojo's in Judo. So where would the people go?

Fact: The late Dr. Ashida, who would know, whenever he was asked about Aikido always said "It's where old Judo people go to die."

Fact: Gene Lebell was at that Shiai Smith writes about, and he has a very different opinion of what took place. Truth is, people were taking dives for Mifune the last 10 years of his life. It was viewed as a respect thing.

Bottom line: The unbendable arm, the you can't move me or lift me, etc, were all done ages ago by "The Georgia Magnet." Look it up. Aikido simply does not work in the context of a real fight, period.

I have more, but I have better things to do with my time than to be a dart board for people lost in a fog of the unknown.

[DerAuslander]

In the first place; we need to understand that the Korean culture is not very fond of the Japanese. This is understandable in light of the many things the Japanese did to the Korean people. This is not to insult or brand all Japanese people as a whole, but rather those that led their country for many years. This cultural situation can be found in numerous Korean translations of various Japanese martial arts.

You're telling this to me?

He has also noted after watching a Hapkido demonstration:

A Hapgido demonstration?

By whom?

Which Hapgido group?

You are aware that Hapgido has vastly changed since Choi Yongsul first began teaching?

“Many of the techniques are alien, not only to the Daito-ryu line, but to all Japanese martial arts. It is certainly true that Hapkido from both native Korean and Chinese sources.” (3)

Various Hapgido groups have developed and changed techniques completely since Choi began teaching. Many of them contribute these to "ancient Korean arts" and deny any connection to Japan.

However, when we strip away these to find the root & look at what Choi Yongsul taught, we find it had absolutely no resemblance to any pre-Occupation Korean art, be it Taegyeon or Ssireum, the two Korean grappling styles.

Further, these techniques in no way resemble or use the same joint-locking mechanics as found in Chinese-derived Korean kung fu systems, geumna/qinna.

What do they look like?

DRAJJ.

Amdur based his conclusions off of extremely limited research...when it comes to KMA history, he doesn't know what he's talking about. He has neither the historic resources, nor the linguistic ability to properly research this subject.

It is absolutely true that there is little actual evidence such as records listing Chloi Yongsul's name in any DRAJJ registry. However, his presence in Japan at the time is documented, as his return to Korea much later. It is highly doubtful that he was ever a proper student of DRAJJ or received any sort of high-level training in DRAJJ. However, the techniques HE TAUGHT (not those who came after him) bear absolutely no resemblance to any native Korean technique of the time. They do bear a strong, and sometimes literal resemblance to DRAJJ.

Documentation:



From DRAJJ's own mouth to God's ears.

Tripp, this has absolutely nothing to do with your issues with Aikido. I'd recommend leaving it alone until you actually have the ability to research it properly.

And why the hell do you care about Chado?

[Raging Monkey]

Really? Hiden magazine as a sort of proof?

I have no dog in this fight either way, but that is just silly.

[Res Judicata]

I suspect that Mark is drawing an analogy. Chado is only tangentially about getting a cup of tea -- just as aikido is only tangentially about fighting. Chado is about many things, such as the perfection of hospitality and an expression of Japanese culture influenced by Zen principles. Aikido has its own set of principles it reflects.

[DerAuslander]

You're absolutely right, RM, that the Hiden article is not proof of HKD's DRAJJ connection. It is on the same level as Amdur/Tripp's relatively uneducated opinion, perhaps a tad bit higher.

The article offers no proof of there being a historical connection, but rather offers the opinion of one high-level DRAJJ practitioner who had the chance to experience Choi Yongsul's original curriculum (which I guarantee you Amdur didn't).

It is absolutely true that in light of the lack of historical documentation, Choi's DRAJJ training may never be proven as fact.

However, it is impossible to prove that he didn't, and his material's EXTREME difference from anything present in Korea at the time & its similarity to DRAJJ & or one of its offshoots (Hakko-ryu has a presence in Korea), point to a very likely possibility that HKD's roots are in DRAJJ.

Without being able to prove that Choi's material derives from earlier Korean or Chinese techniques, Tripp & Amdur's claims cannot be taken with any true scholary seriousness.

[Dsimon3387]

You're telling this to me?



A Hapgido demonstration?

By whom?

Which Hapgido group?

You are aware that Hapgido has vastly changed since Choi Yongsul first began teaching?



Various Hapgido groups have developed and changed techniques completely since Choi began teaching. Many of them contribute these to "ancient Korean arts" and deny any connection to Japan.

However, when we strip away these to find the root & look at what Choi Yongsul taught, we find it had absolutely no resemblance to any pre-Occupation Korean art, be it Taegyeon or Ssireum, the two Korean grappling styles.

Further, these techniques in no way resemble or use the same joint-locking mechanics as found in Chinese-derived Korean kung fu systems, geumna/qinna.

What do they look like?

DRAJJ.

Amdur based his conclusions off of extremely limited research...when it comes to KMA history, he doesn't know what he's talking about. He has neither the historic resources, nor the linguistic ability to properly research this subject.

It is absolutely true that there is little actual evidence such as records listing Chloi Yongsul's name in any DRAJJ registry. However, his presence in Japan at the time is documented, as his return to Korea much later. It is highly doubtful that he was ever a proper student of DRAJJ or received any sort of high-level training in DRAJJ. However, the techniques HE TAUGHT (not those who came after him) bear absolutely no resemblance to any native Korean technique of the time. They do bear a strong, and sometimes literal resemblance to DRAJJ.

Documentation:



From DRAJJ's own mouth to God's ears.

Tripp, this has absolutely nothing to do with your issues with Aikido. I'd recommend leaving it alone until you actually have the ability to research it properly.

And why the hell do you care about Chado?

I am not Korean but this has been the version of events I have found to be most accurate: to put it crudely... the guy may have been a house servant but he was in contact with the art and Takeda was known to be crazy at times and may well have done something like teach someone he felt beneath him... He also beat up construction workers with a sword after all! Takeda was byall accounts the kind of guy who would if you showed respect work with you but if you didn't ouch!

What people are missing is that htere are different lines of Hapkido and the ones coming from Takeda's student look a lot like Diato Ryu... meanwhile we have Bong So Han who looks nothing like Diato Ryu.

[DCS]

You know, the internet is an interesting place. If allows people to hide in their room and be as disrespectful and rude as they wish to be.

Totally correct.

Fact: Judo was the McDojo in the 1950's/1960"s. The establishment of local, state, and national shiai ended the McDojo's in Judo.

Really?

Fact: Gene Lebell was at that Shiai Smith writes about, and he has a very different opinion of what took place.

Can Mr. LeBell post his opinion here about what happened at that 1953 Mcdojoish judo tournament?

Truth is, people were taking dives for Mifune the last 10 years of his life. It was viewed as a respect thing.

Does the same respect applies to an unknown outsider in his early 30's?

I have better things to do with my time than to be a dart board for people lost in a fog of the unknown.

Me too.

[DCS]

Without being able to prove that Choi's material derives from earlier Korean or Chinese techniques, Tripp & Amdur's claims cannot be taken with any true scholary seriousness.

Here is Amdur's full article.

Read it carefully, especially this part:

"Hapkido’s “mood” and way of presenting itself seems to be from another world entirely, and many of its techniques are alien, not only to the Daito-ryu line, but to all Japanese martial arts. It is certainly true that hapkido has also incorporated many techniques from both native Korean and Chinese sources. However, this “alien” character is primarily derived, I believe, from the fact that Korean people see combat, demonstrations, and martial arts practice very differently than Japanese people do, and therefore it is natural that they both structure and perform their martial arts differently. Nonetheless, based on the way the core techniques of locks and throws are performed, I am convinced that hapkido is derived from Daito-ryu."

Bold mine.

[DerAuslander]

Thank you, DCS. I retract my statements about Amdur, since it would seem he agrees with me & not Tripp.

[Dsimon3387]

HereNonetheless, based on the way the core techniques of locks and throws are performed, I am convinced that hapkido is derived from Daito-ryu."

Bold mine.

Honestly when you see Choi's line... Its pretty obvious. What is a bit of a mindfuck is that guys like Bong Soo Han, a guy who I happen to think the world of BTW, well you see the Akido but no it does not look like Diato Ryu is any way shape or form.

People just have to realize that the differences in HapKido, whether imaginary or real, do not negate the relationship of Choi's line to Diato Ryu and... Stuff like the Kook sul Won is very obviously Chinese. You don;t need a scholar to affirm that fact frankly.

If Choi aped Takeda to get his art then he is even more of a fucking genius!

[DCS]

Thank you, DCS. I retract my statements about Amdur, since it would seem he agrees with me & not Tripp.

You're a gentleman and a scholar. You were deceived by Mr. Tripp who cited Amdur's article in a misleading way.

What a lack of ethical behaviour, Mr Tripp. What a shame.

[Dsimon3387]

You're a gentleman and a scholar. You were deceived by Mr. Tripp who cited Amdur's article in a misleading way.

What a lack of ethical behaviour, Mr Tripp. What a shame.

No.

MTripp either:

a) Did not see this information
b) Has a response considering this information.

I would be willing to bet he did not intend to mislead. One thing that occurs to me is that despite any disagreements, the three people involved in this difference of opinion are as far as I can see on this board, ethical and well informed. I would include myself in that category but that would be presumptious

[DCS]

MTripp either:

a) Did not see this information

Which one?

He cited Aikido Journal 1994 as source in his post. I checked the source Mr Tripp himself provided.

Are you trying to tell me he cut and pasted 2 paragraphs from the article without seeing it?

b) Has a response considering this information.

A good one?

Something like "Amdur is a liar like Smith, Threadgill, Skoss et al"?

[DerAuslander]

I'm interested in hearing Tripp's response.

I'd als like to know the answers to two questions.

1) What does Hapgido have to do with any of this?

2) How this thread qualifies as an investigation/MABS material? What are we investigating here?

This thread, at best, belongs in the JMA forum.

[Dsimon3387]

I'm interested in hearing Tripp's response.

I'd als like to know the answers to two questions.

1) What does Hapgido have to do with any of this?

2) How this thread qualifies as an investigation/MABS material? What are we investigating here?

This thread, at best, belongs in the JMA forum.

You are absolutely right on all accounts.