Bouncing in shotokan

[Vieux Normand]

and the final word is 1point2 sucks monkey cock

/thread

This is the fucking internet, genius.

Everything by--and about--you, whether in a forum or in something like Facebook, once there, is there as long as the internet lasts. Someday, somebody will find the above "sucks-monkey-cock" tour-de-force, trace it back to you and--no matter how much you'd wish to distance yourself from this bit of pithy prose--it will define the limits of your future prospects in any domain, social or professional. The only way to avert this personal catastrophe involves you, a rafter, a chair and a belt.

There is no "final word", and if there were, it would not be awarded to you.

[DerAuslander]

He's 12 & has shown no reason to be taken seriously.

[1point2]

and the final word is 1point2 sucks monkey cock

/thread

Oh, wash the sand out of your vagina. I called you out when you needed it. Can you get over it? Or are you twelve?

[Wrestling Dude]

I used to bounce but stopped because i was having trouble planting to make a solid base/stance to throw a solid technique. I felt lighter on my feet bouncing though and was faster moving with my feet, but it just wasn't worth the sacrifice of power & speed of the technique i was doing.

[Patcherson]

and the final word is 1point2 sucks monkey cock

/thread

[Overlord]

As everyone has pointed out, "bouncing" will get to knocked down, swept or thrown. We have beaten down on what competition does to people's training, so no need for more of those points (pun intended).

What I would like to add to the discussion is that I feel many people are misinterpreting what they see some more advanced karateka do through head movement, feints, and pressing the action. A good fighter is always in contact with the floor so that they can immediately focus and drop their weight for strong attacks, counters, or avoidance of being taken down. Yet, if they stand completely rooted, they are never going to be able to move with maximum speed or cover great distance. There's a relaxed connection that they maintain and body movement to set things up. The timing is not to a metronome and can keep the intended target in a defensive mind set with no ability to move forward.

Just another opinion.

[Isshin-RyuMan]

Just don't bounce. I've seen many people literally jumping into osoto-gari or other throws because of this. Any good MA will teach you to stick to the ground.

[Sang]

Unless things have changed, if you back out of the ring 3x you lose automatically. That's not as good as a boxing ring (which isn't as good as a cage) for punishing people for moving straight back, but it's simply not true that you can just get a free reset whenever you want either. A lot of time is spent on footwork, forcing yourself not to backpeddal (it still happens though, because ppl have good timing, take 2 mins to set up an attack, and shoot in with a lot of explosivness), not to get trapped in a corner, limiting your opponent's movements in the ring, maintain range, etc. etc. Their repetoir might not be as vast & well-explored as Western Boxing's 200+ years of advice on the same subject but the real competitors are pretty damn good at it as far as different MAists go.

You have 2 straight up resets and more resets everytime a point is scored in a fight with less points than 20 seconds of boxing. Yes that makes for a massive artificially created fighting arena.

Do some people use their 1st and maybe the 2nd out-of-bounds as a free reset? Sure. Some boxers like to 1-2-clinch and let the ref break them up to create distance artificially all night long, that's the nature of sports. Does it contribute to sport karate being worse as an overall real fight simulator, boxing being better, and mma being better still? Yeah it does, but we already knew that.

When the ref breaks two fighters in boxing he doesn't bring them into the middle of the ring, the fight goes on. I do agree with you though, i'm of the mind that clinching should either be completely legal or that they should take a point everytime someone holds.

Anyways, I really don't think the ring issue is a big deal; it's the artificial breaks from the points (or point in ibbon shobu if you're a real G) that keeps the fight's range artificially long.

The ring issue i brought up just in reference to sparring, when you are striking with someone and they back up to the edge of the mat you MUST stop or they'll quite likely injure themselves running into a wall or go off mat, which results in a reset in the middle like a karate tournament. You then end up with a situation where the bouncer thinks they are effective because they not being hit much but it is only happening like that because they have artificially created an unlimited space to back away from their attacker.

The thing is, two people hovering at just outside each other's range waiting for the other to make a move isn't some fake scenario that can't happen in a fight. It's just something that doesn't take up 90% of the fight and possibly may not even happen. Still though, that situation does pop up from time to time, and logic says when it does tactics/techniques that organically developed for it should be effective again.

The vast majority of fights i've seen while working security have started in clinch range. Either two men want to fight and will posture up to each other or one will get really close to the other first before going for a king-hit. Except for once in a schoolboy fight i've never seen two people hover outside each-others range. It might happen 1% of the time but is this 1% of a time which only counts for 10% of a fight (read .01% of self defence) worth devoting your entire training time to? (I'm not just directing this at you maofis, i know you don't feel too strongly about this)

I never liked sport karate and I was never that good at it either, so it'd be pretty easy for my ego to say anything they do sucks. I've just already done all my bitching about sport karate IRL to instructors/friends for years so it's (mostly) out of my system and I don't feel the need to come down on it so hard when I post.

Yeah i know you are just playing devil's advocate, its ok i'm mainly addressing these posts at other people reading this thread.

Dude, all striking it biased to taller, longer people though. Short people have tactics they can use to help offset the taller person's reach advantage, but there's no significant counter-advantage to a shorter limbs in a punch/kick game, at least as far as I know.

In reality (or some other sport) you'd take those 2 hits at full power...then it might be your turn, or you might be you dazed with 3 & 4 on the way. We'll never know due to the point stoppage (doh), but no matter what fight sport you are in, getting hit with 1-2 is not a positive for you.

A shorter person's goal in a fight is to breach the distance and get into a bubble range where you are inside the taller person's boxing range and he is also inside yours. Then you stay in there, when he moves you move. In order to make this breach you WILL take a few hits, its the price you pay for getting into your optimal range.

When you have a system which RESETS after that initial two hits it is incredibly biased to the taller person. If by some miracle the shorter person does get into their optimal range, they can only stay there for one point before having to breach that gap all over again.

I (truly) appreciate that you have a reasonable amount of Shotokan experience and are now doing a ring sport, so you have a good basis to make comparisons. I have to ask you though, why would you/someone bounce in leg kick and sweep range?

Leg kicks are typically just outside punch range and sweeps are closer. Ditto if you're trapped in a restricted space against the ropes with an opponent in range.

Leg kicks and sweeps are an easy counter because the bouncer is unable to lift his leg to check due to already being in movement and all they need is a little nudge to help their already up moving bodyweight to send them flying.

You need that just-barely-outside-range-to-be-hit-by-anything-except-a-deep-committed-straight-kick distance and your opponent similarly hanging back waiting for you to make a move for it to be, maybe, worth it.

Aye in other words a karate match.

TBH I don't really see where one would feel the urge/get the opportunity to bounce doing MT. Maybe they exist, but casually watching I haven't seen people in MT hang back and come forward suddenly, nor sit back and wait for the other to make a move.

That scenario happens every muay thai fight.

It sounds like you wanted to test the bouncing in MT, gave it a shot (which is awesome), but I question whether you ever got the scenario in which to pull it out or were just forcing a round peg into a square hole.

It is very much a round peg in a square hole when it comes to realistic sparring parameters :(. For the record there are some useful things i use in MT than i learnt in Shotokan but unfortunately like every other effect of point sparring, bouncing is one of the negatives.

Due to the popularity of TKD/Shotokan i usually get to spar someone who tries to bounce under kickboxing rules around once a month, it never ends well for them.

[foxguitar]

WHere I currently train we invited this Kempo school over from a nearby town and practiced that type of sparring. I was fucking horrible at it. I just charged in, got pounded away at, couldn't score. I just don't get it and can't do it, even though I tried.

I personally cannot figure out what scores a point and what does not. But I still enjoyed it. Anyone care to give an explanation? Hope I don't sound too ignorant.

There are certain scoring areas on the body for example in WKF
you have the upper torso including front , sides , back excluding arms .
Also the head area excluding front of the face are targets.

A point is scored with either punching technique to the body , light controlled contact to the head and side of the face or kicking techniques to the described target.

sweeps and take downs are allowed but must be followed up immediately by an attacking technique, You are allowed to momentarilly grab your opponent to spin him to strike but not allowed to clinch.

points are awarded for clear clean focused techniques. Techniques have to be delivered with proper technique no excuse me technique where a competitor blindly sticks his hand out and scores.

1 point is awarded for a hand strike which can include a back fist or a ridge hand , But those are rarely awarded thus very rarely attempted

2 points are awarded for kicking techniques to the body

3 points for a kick to the head or side of the face , Must be controlled without excessive contact

3 points for a sweep or takedown immediately followed up with an attack.

In other words its hard to score especially among the real good fighters.

Its not tag your it , good judges will not score weak or poorly delivered techniques.

You have to train and be used to this style of competition just as you must train for all types of other competition.

There are rules against stepping out of bounds , Rules against avoiding combat in other words you cant just run out the clock

The non world Championships are 2 minute 8 point matches

in the event of a tie you fight for another minute it used to be sudden death no more

No more grabbing allowed except to grab you a second to lets say grab the opponents forward arm to spin him and immediately attack.

The diiference from the old style was it used to be 3 point matchs , and each technique was 1 point so competitors would stick to front kicks and lunge and reverse punch

Now with the kicks and sweeps being awarded higher points alot more reverse round kicks Ura Mawashi and sweeps .

And rather than have to succesfully land 8 kicks its faster to hit with a few kicks to end and win a match.

Its not for everyone. Just as the ground and pound game isnt for everyone.

[foxguitar]

Now that's a decently well-balanced post, Fox.

Every one in awhile I shock people LOL , Thanks

[crappler]

I do like sport karate , and because of my profession and not say Im the deadly , Ive have engaged in many more real encounters than lets the average person. So sports karate is fun real fighting is not

And why do I enjoy sport karate , The better competitors train like demons to get really good, Its not just rush in and tag your it , alot of things go into making them succesfull such developing strength , speed , timing and fighting stragedy .

I fight in the over 35 mens or over 45 if they have it BB division and I love after im done watching the 19-34 BBs go at it , they are well trained and have explosive technique and you could tell they practice intensely . Most do bounce , some less some more.

but off my diversion , I enjoy sports karate because for me personally it does what I want , its great training , I feel it brings up my Karate abilities and if I had to scuffle I know I can go in and hit my target , I can also take a hit cause lets face it even champion boxers get hit , it also helps me think on my feet and adjust in a split second to any threats or opportunities to attack my opponent etc

If I was younger maybe I eschew Sport Karate and do BJJ or MMA. But for me at this stage sport karate is pretty cool.

WHere I currently train we invited this Kempo school over from a nearby town and practiced that type of sparring. I was fucking horrible at it. I just charged in, got pounded away at, couldn't score. I just don't get it and can't do it, even though I tried.

I personally cannot figure out what scores a point and what does not. But I still enjoyed it. Anyone care to give an explanation? Hope I don't sound too ignorant.

[DerAuslander]

Now that's a decently well-balanced post, Fox.

[Alex \m/]

i remember seeing a video of Master Okazaki commenting on the fighters in the first All Japan karate tournament saying "Why are they bouncing like monkeys?" Personally, I like to slide back, forth, left, right when I want to create some distraction 'cause then I'm still solid. I also like to flinch my head but being grounded is so much more important to me.

[foxguitar]

I do like sport karate , and because of my profession and not say Im the deadly , Ive have engaged in many more real encounters than lets the average person. So sports karate is fun real fighting is not

And why do I enjoy sport karate , The better competitors train like demons to get really good, Its not just rush in and tag your it , alot of things go into making them succesfull such developing strength , speed , timing and fighting stragedy .

I fight in the over 35 mens or over 45 if they have it BB division and I love after im done watching the 19-34 BBs go at it , they are well trained and have explosive technique and you could tell they practice intensely . Most do bounce , some less some more.

but off my diversion , I enjoy sports karate because for me personally it does what I want , its great training , I feel it brings up my Karate abilities and if I had to scuffle I know I can go in and hit my target , I can also take a hit cause lets face it even champion boxers get hit , it also helps me think on my feet and adjust in a split second to any threats or opportunities to attack my opponent etc

If I was younger maybe I eschew Sport Karate and do BJJ or MMA. But for me at this stage sport karate is pretty cool.

[foxguitar]

Unless things have changed, if you back out of the ring 3x you lose automatically. That's not as good as a boxing ring (which isn't as good as a cage) for punishing people for moving straight back, but it's simply not true that you can just get a free reset whenever you want either. A lot of time is spent on footwork, forcing yourself not to backpeddal (it still happens though, because ppl have good timing, take 2 mins to set up an attack, and shoot in with a lot of explosivness), not to get trapped in a corner, limiting your opponent's movements in the ring, maintain range, etc. etc. Their repetoir might not be as vast & well-explored as Western Boxing's 200+ years of advice on the same subject but the real competitors are pretty damn good at it as far as different MAists go.

Do some people use their 1st and maybe the 2nd out-of-bounds as a free reset? Sure. Some boxers like to 1-2-clinch and let the ref break them up to create distance artificially all night long, that's the nature of sports. Does it contribute to sport karate being worse as an overall real fight simulator, boxing being better, and mma being better still? Yeah it does, but we already knew that. Anyways, I really don't think the ring issue is a big deal; it's the artificial breaks from the points (or point in ibbon shobu if you're a real G) that keeps the fight's range artificially long.

In any case, that (artificial distance, I just dn't think the ring is to blame much) is definitely why we things like bouncing developed, no argument there. Yes, if you change the nature of a fight format to encourage one specific range or style then of course tons of tactics that excell in that range/style will organically sprout up.

The thing is, two people hovering at just outside each other's range waiting for the other to make a move isn't some fake scenario that can't happen in a fight. It's just something that doesn't take up 90% of the fight and possibly may not even happen. Still though, that situation does pop up from time to time, and logic says when it does tactics/techniques that organically developed for it should be effective again.



Well, I've been a 2nd since 2001 (underachiever ftw), and I've probably lost most point-sparring matches I've been in (or at least the bigger ones), so grats. :)

I never liked sport karate and I was never that good at it either, so it'd be pretty easy for my ego to say anything they do sucks. I've just already done all my bitching about sport karate IRL to instructors/friends for years so it's (mostly) out of my system and I don't feel the need to come down on it so hard when I post.

I think there's something to the bounce. I don't think it's important to learn or anything (because it's not like it's even necessary at the range it's okay in). I just think it's more functional than some people think, but they see it done badly or outside of the range it's for (or done by people doing light contact or fighting in sideways stances, etc. etc.) and not done by a reasonably competant person trying to hit someone.



Dude, all striking it biased to taller, longer people though. Short people have tactics they can use to help offset the taller person's reach advantage, but there's no significant counter-advantage to a shorter limbs in a punch/kick game, at least as far as I know.

In reality (or some other sport) you'd take those 2 hits at full power...then it might be your turn, or you might be you dazed with 3 & 4 on the way. We'll never know due to the point stoppage (doh), but no matter what fight sport you are in, getting hit with 1-2 is not a positive for you.



I (truly) appreciate that you have a reasonable amount of Shotokan experience and are now doing a ring sport, so you have a good basis to make comparisons. I have to ask you though, why would you/someone bounce in leg kick and sweep range?

Leg kicks are typically just outside punch range and sweeps are closer. Ditto if you're trapped in a restricted space against the ropes with an opponent in range. You need that just-barely-outside-range-to-be-hit-by-anything-except-a-deep-committed-straight-kick distance and your opponent similarly hanging back waiting for you to make a move for it to be, maybe, worth it.

TBH I don't really see where one would feel the urge/get the opportunity to bounce doing MT. Maybe they exist, but casually watching I haven't seen people in MT hang back and come forward suddenly, nor sit back and wait for the other to make a move. It sounds like you wanted to test the bouncing in MT, gave it a shot (which is awesome), but I question whether you ever got the scenario in which to pull it out or were just forcing a round peg into a square hole.

intelligently stated