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    #61
    Originally posted by maofas View Post
    What does "(probably) Shotokan" mean?
    I didn't like it so I never bothered to find out exactly what style it was.

    Originally posted by maofas View Post
    Let me get this straight: you tried some random krotty school, have nfc even what type it was, and now you're just going to assume it's Shotokan because it suits your argument? Really?
    They were point fighters. I know that for sure. Just what do you think my argument is? And do you mean just in this thread or in the 2 or 3 threads where foxguitar takes on all comers he feels have slighted shotokan? I came into this thread asking if fox' position was really that point karate is great because it eventually might train an attribute or two that's useful in real fighting. I'm not going after shotokan in particular but any type or low contact start stop point fighting.

    My lack of shotokan experience really has nothing to do with anything in this thread.
    He still hasn't adressed that point.
    Last edited by Lindz; 8/11/2009 9:38am, .

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      #62
      Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
      Yes, we know, you said so in the other thread.

      What does this have to do with anything?
      I felt like adding it , some people dont read both threads ,
      and I do take Shotokan and the thread is about Shotokan to a degree so whats it to you anyway .:new_all_c

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        #63
        I also train in Shotokan, and I can tell you that the "bouncing" is not taught. I think it makes it more difficult to spar that way.

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          #64
          Originally posted by Kalivander View Post
          I also train in Shotokan, and I can tell you that the "bouncing" is not taught. I think it makes it more difficult to spar that way.
          the old style shotokan generally did not bounce , the new wave of fighters do because the european fighters started to do it with great success and success breeds imititation .
          And its not just shotokan its the fighters who fight WKF style I notice.

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            #65
            Originally posted by foxguitar View Post
            the old style shotokan generally did not bounce , the new wave of fighters do because the european fighters started to do it with great success and success breeds imititation .
            And its not just shotokan its the fighters who fight WKF style I notice.
            "Success breeds imitation" is really the sad story of all this. Bouncing is bad for fighting in broad rulesets, but since it works for striking-only point-fighting, it becomes prevalent. That makes the (quasi-useful) ruleset (even) less useful.

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              #66
              Originally posted by bitchslapper View Post
              I didn't like it so I never bothered to find out exactly what style it was.



              They were point fighters. I know that for sure. Just what do you think my argument is? And do you mean just in this thread or in the 2 or 3 threads where foxguitar takes on all comers he feels have slighted shotokan? I came into this thread asking if fox' position was really that point karate is great because it eventually might train an attribute or two that's useful in real fighting. I'm not going after shotokan in particular but any type or low contact start stop point fighting.

              My lack of shotokan experience really has nothing to do with anything in this thread.
              He still hasn't adressed that point.
              ok first off you are the one who talks about things being useless and no good and this sucks and thats sucks .

              And just because the tournament you watched may have been low quality doesnt mean all of them are.
              Chuck Norris Bill wallace Joe Louis Toyataro Miyazaki Alex Sternberg ,Tom Lapuppett and others were all point fighters , tell me which one of them could you beat in a real fight

              And as far as Shotokan , I dont care if you like it , its ok its not everybodies cup of tea. But what I do object is putting something down or saying this sucks or that dont work when you dont have the necessary experience to qualify you to say whats what.

              Its like me talking Pro baseball , Ive played ball as a kid does that mean I can speak with authority whats its like to be in the Major Leagues.

              And even though I dont do BJJ or other arts I can recognized the positives that come with them.
              Thats the difference between us. You can have your opinion thats fine but please dont tell me that something is useless or worthless and pass your own opinion as a fact.

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                #67
                I'm pretty sure bouncing originated with TKD point fighting. I'm not Shotokan but it looks like it is much easier to score when you are bouncing and operating in that lame side stance that TKD uses. I agree with 1point2 in that regard. I joined a kempo dojo and made it all the way to purple belt (which is about six months training) and entered a competition. It was a complete joke. The guy I "fought" was six feet, four inches, and just bopped me on the head with his glove. I felt totally cheated. Funny thing, those Kempo guys were tough. The really didn't practice point sparring. It was continuous hard sparring with gear.

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                  #68
                  Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
                  "Success breeds imitation" is really the sad story of all this. Bouncing is bad for fighting in broad rulesets, but since it works for striking-only point-fighting, it becomes prevalent. That makes the (quasi-useful) ruleset (even) less useful.
                  it works for that sport , And didnt Bruce Lee do it , dont boxers do it.

                  years ago when I started shotokan karate players stayed almost stationary and when they attacked it was usually a front kick reverse punch .

                  The european fighters started to incorporate the bouncing they do with great success they can throw techniques from mutiple of angles and are more versatile than the early Karate fighters.

                  Im not really a bouncer myself because i started my training in the 70s and when bouncing wasnt in.

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                    #69
                    Originally posted by Kalivander View Post
                    I also train in Shotokan, and I can tell you that the "bouncing" is not taught. I think it makes it more difficult to spar that way.
                    well two different sensais that I was taught under always said "on your toes" when we went into fighting stance so i wouldn't say it was taught but was encouraged

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                      #70
                      Patcherson and fox are dichotomizing this between "anything moving, which must be bouncing" and "absolutely rock-still like a statue."

                      There's a middle ground to be found in MMA, MT, boxing, judo, and Kyokushin, to name several. It's movement not based on bouncing.

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                        #71
                        Fox, unfortunately the burden of proof is on you. You've made the claim, so you have to prove that WKF pointsparring is an optimal training format for combat.

                        Further, just because Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, and Bill Wallace were once pointfighters does not validate point fighting.

                        These men left pointfighting because they felt it was not a good venue for testing their skills, and created full contact karate/American kickboxing.

                        Further, when they trained for American kickboxing, they did not train in the same manner as they did for point fighting, and did not perform in the same manner.

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                          #72
                          this isn't about any other style of karate or about kickboxing or about contact sparring
                          it's about bouncing in shotokan karate please keep on topic thanks

                          osu

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                            #73
                            Originally posted by Patcherson View Post
                            this isn't about any other style of karate or about kickboxing or about contact sparring
                            it's about bouncing in shotokan karate please keep on topic thanks

                            osu
                            You don't get to dictate terms of the thread like that, bub. We're close enough for rock n roll.

                            See my last 2 posts: bouncing in Shotokan is an over-adaptation to the rules (minimaxing, if you play D&D). A better method for footwork is found in continuous-rules, hard-contact combat sports.

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                              #74
                              Originally posted by Patcherson View Post
                              this isn't about any other style of karate or about kickboxing or about contact sparring
                              it's about bouncing in shotokan karate please keep on topic thanks

                              osu
                              On-Topic:

                              Bouncing in Shotokan detracts from training for real-life conflict (jissen karate). While it may have limited uses within ippon kumite, it is not a beneficial technique, and should be avoid in favor of more fluid footwork, as exemplified better in other, related karate systems that provide training more beneficial for jissen karate.

                              So, Patcherson, are you saying that Shotokan is not jissen karate?

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                                #75
                                I have a lot of high level point sparring experience. I was ranked 8th nationally in the ITC (A relatively small organization, but with plenty of people), I competed in the ITF World Cup, and I have a big ass room full of stupid TKD trophies from 1994-1998. I can point spar the shit ouf of people.
                                Point sparring is stupid. It creates a million bad habits that take forever to break, and it's incredibly inefficient. You are hundreds of times better off training in an art that does something more useful.

                                When I WAS point sparring though, I bounced like the fucking energizer bunny.

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