Bouncing in shotokan

[foxguitar]

Fox, that's a ridiculous argument. You went from our assertion A to claim Q.

A: Rulesets that are highly limited are not useful to learning, emulating or practicing combat skills.

Q: Any ruleset, since it by definition has some sort of rule, is not useful to combat.

Do you seriously not see how one ruleset can be, plain and simple, superior for learning and practicing combat skills with the intent of simulating real combat as closely as possible?

I will refrain from making examples because I want you to admit the salient point.

Yes but what im saying is then Sport Karate is useless .

And that the only legitimate art is MMA ,

And thats silly . With proper training and skills like I said before you can and should be able to modify and differentiate between a sporting competition and a real fight where its win at all costs and there is no such thing as a dirty fighting .

Ill use me for example Ive only studied Shotokan and Taekwondo and mostly in Traditional Shotokan Dojos other than the one Im at now and the Taekwondo Schools were either old style Korean Karate or olympic styles .
Ive sparred AAU WKF rules and WTF TKD .

But I was able to modify the sport version to a real combat situation . Im not trying to sell anybody , it works for me ,

[1point2]

Fox, that's a ridiculous argument. You went from our assertion A to claim Q.

A: Rulesets that are highly limited are not useful to learning, emulating or practicing combat skills.

Q: Any ruleset, since it by definition has some sort of rule, is not useful to combat.

Do you seriously not see how one ruleset can be, plain and simple, superior for learning and practicing combat skills with the intent of simulating real combat as closely as possible?

I will refrain from making examples because I want you to admit the salient point.

[foxguitar]

All my competitions were under WKF rules. The ruleset unfortunately like all point sparring is far too superficial to be used for the purpose of teaching people how to fight.

Ok but if thats true Karate as most styles are now is useless.

Because other than Kyokushin , they basically the same . and even Kyokushin would be superficial because they seem to face each other and just slug it out I dont think face punchs are allowed or sweeps or takedowns

Taekwondo is superficial because they drop their hands and have virtually no hand techniques

Muay Thai is because as far as I know same as Kyokushin no sweeps takedowns or ground game

UFC is because of certain restrictions there too

Point is while trying to be comedic , Anything short of actual combat is superficial. And in real combat its hit first hit hard hit often and run like hell and the Keep It Simple Stupid works best.

[Sang]

alot of what you posted here is true however in WKF if it is perceived by the Judge you are avoiding combat for example trying to kill the clock or running out of bounds first offense is a warning second offense is penalty with a point being given to your opponent , third offense 2 points

All my competitions were under WKF rules. The ruleset unfortunately like all point sparring is far too superficial to be used for the purpose of teaching people how to fight.

[foxguitar]

The problem Maofas is that bouncing relies completely on there being an endless distance to backup, there is no efficient use of footwork to maneuver around your opponent by cutting angles or to completely evade your opponents attacks while being confined to a small area (boxing footwork).

Within the shotokan sparring ruleset this endless distance is artificially created due to matches reseting when one person backs up too far or hits the other person. This is the main reason some people find bouncing to be effective when sparring on an open mat, as soon as the TKD/karate guy backs up too far the match resets. This is also why as much striking sparring as possible should be done in a ring.

I'm a shotokan 1st dan and won every point sparring match i went into due to the ruleset having an incredible bias towards tall, lanky people. You bounce and tag them with 1-2 hits as the shorter person cuts the range and win, in reality after that shorter person has eaten your first 2 hits it's their turn to pulverize you.

I then tried to use the bounce in Muay Thai and found out the hard way that it is completely useless if any of these factors are present:
A) You are in a restricted space.
B) Leg kicks are allowed.
C) Sweeps are allowed.

Bouncing is the complete opposite of good footwork.

alot of what you posted here is true however in WKF if it is perceived by the Judge you are avoiding combat for example trying to kill the clock or running out of bounds first offense is a warning second offense is penalty with a point being given to your opponent , third offense 2 points

And with the top competitors 1 point could be the difference btween grand champion and nice try.

Most of the better competitors are about 6'1" to 6' 3"
tall and lanky at least in the main division 19-34 where your championsd come from.

As as for bouncing it works in WKF but obviously in other combat sports it probably wont.

I for one dont bounce much , I find it tiring and coming up from the old way I still tend to keep my motion to a mininum, I dont know if its good but its just the way Im comfortable . Another thing I notice alot of the better competitors fight with their right leg forward . Unless the majority are left handed which I doubt it seems they want to do alot of front leg kicks such as ura mawashi , And the back leg kicks are way too slow .
Just an observation.

[Sang]

The problem Maofas is that bouncing relies completely on there being an endless distance to backup, there is no efficient use of footwork to maneuver around your opponent by cutting angles or to completely evade your opponents attacks while being confined to a small area (boxing footwork).

Within the shotokan sparring ruleset this endless distance is artificially created due to matches reseting when one person backs up too far or hits the other person. This is the main reason some people find bouncing to be effective when sparring on an open mat, as soon as the TKD/karate guy backs up too far the match resets. This is also why as much striking sparring as possible should be done in a ring.

I'm a shotokan 1st dan and won every point sparring match i went into due to the ruleset having an incredible bias towards tall, lanky people. You bounce and tag them with 1-2 hits as the shorter person cuts the range and win, in reality after that shorter person has eaten your first 2 hits it's their turn to pulverize you.

I then tried to use the bounce in Muay Thai and found out the hard way that it is completely useless if any of these factors are present:
A) You are in a restricted space.
B) Leg kicks are allowed.
C) Sweeps are allowed.

Bouncing is the complete opposite of good footwork.

[maofas]

It's just footwork, level of contact has nothing to do with whether it's effective or not. Many people bounce in full contact bareknuckle ippon shobu as well and competitors can drop like flies during that.

I think the common situation sport karate creates (two people deadset on counterpunching or at least highly conscious of not getting countered) is one where the bounce can be good (for reasons stated in previous post in this thread).

People counterpunch in other sports and once in a blue moon get koed by a single punch, but generally people don't fear getting hit with one punch so much. Points in sport karate artificially create extra fear of being countered and bareknuckle ippon shobu creates a real fear of the same (because who wants to walk into a full power punch to the face with no gloves?). I doubt you'll ever see two kickboxers sitting there fucking around with for minutes before a clash, and even if so, certainly not on a regular basis which would make people start to develop footwork and strategy around it.

I bet it would work well, if you have the accompanying shifting footwork, in Irish Gypsy bareknuckle boxing. Mind you I'm 2/3 joking by pulling some obscure pseudo-sport out of my ass as mock-justification, but I really do think that format would be suit that sort of footwork very well.

If you ever watch some on YT, the contestants spend 9/10 of the fight circling each other out of range, then try to zip in quickly as possible for a hit, and then either followup or, if they failed to nail them, zip back out to range and start over.

[foxguitar]

But if you have half a brain and train properly you should be able to transition from sport to self defence by modifying your technique accordingly to the situation.

You seem to be on the right track there...

thank you

[Artis Ferox]

But if you have half a brain and train properly you should be able to transition from sport to self defence by modifying your technique accordingly to the situation.

You seem to be on the right track there...

[foxguitar]

Fox, unfortunately the burden of proof is on you. You've made the claim, so you have to prove that WKF pointsparring is an optimal training format for combat.

Further, just because Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, and Bill Wallace were once pointfighters does not validate point fighting.

These men left pointfighting because they felt it was not a good venue for testing their skills, and created full contact karate/American kickboxing.

Further, when they trained for American kickboxing, they did not train in the same manner as they did for point fighting, and did not perform in the same manner.

I thought American Kick Boxing was terrible

I dont know how to answer that , I guess in truth MMA would be the best training for combat , It encompasses stand up , grappling and a ground game.
but that means that even favored arts like kyokushin is limited as well , even though it may allow knees and leg kicks and is continous and full contact to a degree ,as I understand there are no face punches and no take downs or sweeps. Taekwondo full contact , no leg kicks , or sweeps and hand techniques are virtually non existant
Even BJJ is limited too in that while deadly on the ground how effective is it with multiple opponents , and BJJ is lacking in the stand up department.

For me as a LEO , chances are Im going to deal with multiple attackers , most bad guys travel in pairs . the last thing I want to is grapple with suspects because first off I have a weapon to maintain and if Im on the ground with bad boy #1 then bad boy #2 can football kick me in the head.

Now mind you plenty of fellow LEOS in my Dept take BJJ . And they love it.

And I do think being able to grapple and a having good ground game is a great thing , But for me and this only my own opinion and im not trying to say this is the best or this the greatest . stand up karate has worked well .
Of course in the Dojo we do practice self defense techniques like knees , elbows and even wrestling like I described in a early thread.

But the bulk of our sparring is competition style , we do on every once in awhile do continous sparring , we wear TKD chest protectors and the contact is pretty heavy , My particular dojo is very competition orientated as it operated by former world class competitors so the training is very live and the old style traditional stuff is almost non existant

While Id be lying to say WKF rules competition is without weakness , I think the strong points are as follows.

You develop good timing good focus good speed along with the ability to see openings and take advantage , the ability to hit a target and take getting hit.

I think people have this notion they think of the old style tournaments where a good front kick and reverse punch was all one needed . In the modern competitions there are sweeps and takedowns ,kicks to the head are awarded and techniques have to clean and crisp and decisive.And points are hard to come by

Is it best system to train for combat . I dont know , It is sport and as much as a sport can be transitioned into real fighting , for me it has worked well. I cant speak for others .

There is a big difference between sport karate and battling for your life. But again I ask how many are really ever going to ever do that .
But if you have half a brain and train properly you should be able to transition from sport to self defence by modifying your technique accordingly to the situation.

So I dont know if that addressed it properly.

And again this is based on my own personal experiences . It may not work for others and I accept that

[DerAuslander]

The prosecution rests.

[Patcherson]

rofl =P

she looks happy enough =)

i wanna move to japan!

[DerAuslander]

-rep for exploiting Asian women

[Patcherson]

Patcherson can stay.

i know we have our disagreements but I'm not all bad <3

+rep for the Asian chicks!

[DerAuslander]

Patcherson can stay.