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Bouncing in shotokan

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  • maofas
    replied
    Originally posted by Sang View Post
    The problem Maofas is that bouncing relies completely on there being an endless distance to backup, there is no efficient use of footwork to maneuver around your opponent by cutting angles or to completely evade your opponents attacks while being confined to a small area (boxing footwork).
    Unless things have changed, if you back out of the ring 3x you lose automatically. That's not as good as a boxing ring (which isn't as good as a cage) for punishing people for moving straight back, but it's simply not true that you can just get a free reset whenever you want either. A lot of time is spent on footwork, forcing yourself not to backpeddal (it still happens though, because ppl have good timing, take 2 mins to set up an attack, and shoot in with a lot of explosivness), not to get trapped in a corner, limiting your opponent's movements in the ring, maintain range, etc. etc. Their repetoir might not be as vast & well-explored as Western Boxing's 200+ years of advice on the same subject but the real competitors are pretty damn good at it as far as different MAists go.

    Do some people use their 1st and maybe the 2nd out-of-bounds as a free reset? Sure. Some boxers like to 1-2-clinch and let the ref break them up to create distance artificially all night long, that's the nature of sports. Does it contribute to sport karate being worse as an overall real fight simulator, boxing being better, and mma being better still? Yeah it does, but we already knew that. Anyways, I really don't think the ring issue is a big deal; it's the artificial breaks from the points (or point in ibbon shobu if you're a real G) that keeps the fight's range artificially long.

    In any case, that (artificial distance, I just dn't think the ring is to blame much) is definitely why we things like bouncing developed, no argument there. Yes, if you change the nature of a fight format to encourage one specific range or style then of course tons of tactics that excell in that range/style will organically sprout up.

    The thing is, two people hovering at just outside each other's range waiting for the other to make a move isn't some fake scenario that can't happen in a fight. It's just something that doesn't take up 90% of the fight and possibly may not even happen. Still though, that situation does pop up from time to time, and logic says when it does tactics/techniques that organically developed for it should be effective again.

    I'm a shotokan 1st dan and won every point sparring match i went into due to the ruleset having an incredible bias towards tall, lanky people.
    Well, I've been a 2nd since 2001 (underachiever ftw), and I've probably lost most point-sparring matches I've been in (or at least the bigger ones), so grats. :)

    I never liked sport karate and I was never that good at it either, so it'd be pretty easy for my ego to say anything they do sucks. I've just already done all my bitching about sport karate IRL to instructors/friends for years so it's (mostly) out of my system and I don't feel the need to come down on it so hard when I post.

    I think there's something to the bounce. I don't think it's important to learn or anything (because it's not like it's even necessary at the range it's okay in). I just think it's more functional than some people think, but they see it done badly or outside of the range it's for (or done by people doing light contact or fighting in sideways stances, etc. etc.) and not done by a reasonably competant person trying to hit someone.

    You bounce and tag them with 1-2 hits as the shorter person cuts the range and win, in reality after that shorter person has eaten your first 2 hits it's their turn to pulverize you.
    Dude, all striking it biased to taller, longer people though. Short people have tactics they can use to help offset the taller person's reach advantage, but there's no significant counter-advantage to a shorter limbs in a punch/kick game, at least as far as I know.

    In reality (or some other sport) you'd take those 2 hits at full power...then it might be your turn, or you might be you dazed with 3 & 4 on the way. We'll never know due to the point stoppage (doh), but no matter what fight sport you are in, getting hit with 1-2 is not a positive for you.

    I then tried to use the bounce in Muay Thai and found out the hard way that it is completely useless if any of these factors are present:
    A) You are in a restricted space.
    B) Leg kicks are allowed.
    C) Sweeps are allowed.
    I (truly) appreciate that you have a reasonable amount of Shotokan experience and are now doing a ring sport, so you have a good basis to make comparisons. I have to ask you though, why would you/someone bounce in leg kick and sweep range?

    Leg kicks are typically just outside punch range and sweeps are closer. Ditto if you're trapped in a restricted space against the ropes with an opponent in range. You need that just-barely-outside-range-to-be-hit-by-anything-except-a-deep-committed-straight-kick distance and your opponent similarly hanging back waiting for you to make a move for it to be, maybe, worth it.

    TBH I don't really see where one would feel the urge/get the opportunity to bounce doing MT. Maybe they exist, but casually watching I haven't seen people in MT hang back and come forward suddenly, nor sit back and wait for the other to make a move. It sounds like you wanted to test the bouncing in MT, gave it a shot (which is awesome), but I question whether you ever got the scenario in which to pull it out or were just forcing a round peg into a square hole.

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  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    That doesn't really answer the question of whether they would do better in a less restrictive rule set by not bouncing.
    I cant answer that , I dont know what other training they have , But the bouncing works for them in WKF , I am not much of a bouncer , but my sensei who is a former world class competitor advocates bouncing , he says it makes it harder for you opponent to know when you are going to launch an attack than standing still but he also teaches using feints and hand movements to throw off an opponent and make your opponent not be able to easily time you.

    Leave a comment:


  • PointyShinyBurn
    replied
    Originally posted by foxguitar View Post
    I wouldnt want to rumble with them,
    That doesn't really answer the question of whether they would do better in a less restrictive rule set by not bouncing.

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    The question is whether they are actually better fighters, or just better WKF competitors.
    I wouldnt want to rumble with them,

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  • Patcherson
    replied

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  • PointyShinyBurn
    replied
    Originally posted by foxguitar View Post
    But I do observe the mens BB division better fighters do bounce . So I guess its up to each persons own style .
    The question is whether they are actually better fighters, or just better WKF competitors.

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    last night we had kumite class and I never really thought about the bouncing thing ,
    Im definitely not a bouncer , actually other than moving side to side or moving to set up my attack or counter , I dont move much , I dont know if thats a good thing , but its my style and I find bouncing messes me up more than helps me.

    But I do observe the mens BB division better fighters do bounce . So I guess its up to each persons own style .

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  • Sang
    replied
    No need to rush Maofas, people have been arguing about this topic for years already so a few days more won't matter.

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  • maofas
    replied
    I keep coming back to my computer every couple of hours meaning to finish this reply to Sang, but now I'm way to stoned to finish this. I'm at the point where I can't tell if I'm being clear or going off on crazy fucking tangents.

    Fuggit, I'm going to bed, tomorrow!!!

    P.S. On a side note, the tits picture actually made me think of something.

    I notice I get myself drawn into debating shit (not saying this thread hasn't been pretty decent so far tbh) that don't feel personally invested in one way or the other and come off like a huge supporter of something I'm ambivalent about. Anywho, I think if I had some random funny nonsense picture of my own, but something actually funny, like the fucking Excalibur of nonsense gifs, the next time someone posts something like "wat do u think of ridgehand in Shotokan" I'll be able to just go, "TITS, peace I'm out!"

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  • eyebeams
    replied
    There are several fights up on Youtube where Machida bounces just outside the pocket, but not once he gets any closer and never for any great length of time. Like him vs. Bonnar here:

    YouTube - Stephan Bonnar vs Lyoto Machida

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  • ciscodog
    replied
    We rarley spar for points, we just go at it for 3 minutes at a time 1 minute break 3 minute, and so on. The one thing i believe point sparring can really contribute to is accuracy and defense/countering . Example the classic reverse punch Machida uses to interrupt Evans timing and distance, it was the beginning of the end. Classic point sparring technique, of course followed up (also no bouncing.)
    YouTube - Evans vs Machida

    As far as bouncing vs not,we dont bounce, we get yelled at if we bounce are even raise up when we throw a kick or punch. Anyway check it.... out one bounces the other doesnt.....http://www.mma-core.com/videos/_Forr...005948&tid=100 or

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  • Patcherson
    replied
    Originally posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    Sport karate is not useless.

    It is inferior.
    I agree with this +rep

    Leave a comment:


  • Patcherson
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
    Fox, that's a ridiculous argument. You went from our assertion A to claim Q.

    A: Rulesets that are highly limited are not useful to learning, emulating or practicing combat skills.

    Q: Any ruleset, since it by definition has some sort of rule, is not useful to combat.

    Do you seriously not see how one ruleset can be, plain and simple, superior for learning and practicing combat skills with the intent of simulating real combat as closely as possible?

    I will refrain from making examples because I want you to admit the salient point.
    let me answer that with

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  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    Sport karate is not useless.

    It is inferior.

    well there wasnt MMA when I started . I walked in Shotokan Dojo so Im used to Traditional Martial Arts and thats what they subscribe to .

    Leave a comment:


  • DerAuslander
    replied
    Sport karate is not useless.

    It is inferior.

    Leave a comment:

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