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  • 1point2
    replied
    Originally posted by foxguitar View Post
    I already stated the reasons why Kata were useful , Im not going to rehash them , Go read my posts and really try to understand them rather go on a verbal kumite .
    I said That Kata helps coordination , balance , endurance , focus , body shifting and other various other niceties .
    How could it possibly improve endurance? I'll allow for balance, posture, focus (guh, what an overused term) and maybe some remedial coordination...but how are the heavy bag, shadowboxing, and pad work not eminently superior for everything except balance and posture? Don't just assert, argue and explain. With examples.

    Originally posted by foxguitar View Post
    Go watch the Kata competitions of the WKF championships , especially team Kata and the required Bunkai and for one second do you think they would be scrubs in kumite .
    Yes, yes I do. If they haven't trained in judo, kyokushin type karate, or other hard sparring competitive randori/kumite, I doubt they have valuable sparring skills. Their success in play-fighting means nothing for their fighting skills. It's like arguing that The Governator is a good fighter because he was a bodybuilder. Yes he's strong but that's not fighting skill.
    Last edited by 1point2; 7/30/2009 4:06pm, . Reason: Changed example to be more valid. Twice.

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  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
    Foxguitar has shat up several threads with his monotonous, non-engagement style of non-argument regarding kata.

    This site is about verifiable claims and useful, practical martial arts training. We totally accept kata practitioners and kata proponents, as long as they acknowledge its shortcomings and present evidence for their views regarding its usefulness. Fox has refused to do any of these things; at this point he is just perverting the purpose of the "TMA" forums.

    I already stated the reasons why Kata were useful , Im not going to rehash them , Go read my posts and really try to understand them rather go on a verbal kumite .
    I said That Kata helps coordination , balance , endurance , focus , body shifting and other various other niceties .
    I also said that you must do kumite to be a better fighter and you must train live with real opponents.

    But to say Kata sucks and is useless is small minded and narrow.

    I was always a fighter first I too hated Kata as newb Karate , I didnt understand it now as a more experienced practioneer I see the virtues of kata. I dont mean just doing Kata but Mastering them .

    Go watch the Kata competitions of the WKF championships , especially team Kata and the required Bunkai and for one second do you think they would be scrubs in kumite .

    If people on this thread take a traditional martial art like Shotokan or Goju or even kyokushin they will have to do and master Kata .

    So Im sorry if you thought your former style sucked . I know Isshinryu people that are very good . But you speak your own views is if it came from mt Olympus.

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  • HenryT
    replied
    kata

    I screwed up that last message - forgot to put 1point2's words in a quote box. Apologies.

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  • HenryT
    replied
    kata

    Alive drilling and sparring with a progressively resistant partner is the way to improve fighting attributes (strength, speed, footwork, timing, sensitivity, body coordination) and fighting skill.I agree entirely; but that's what bunkai, properly understood, is, IMO. If you could come train with me, I could show you what I mean. Don't take that the wrong way: all I mean by it is that it's difficult to put what I mean into words.

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  • 1point2
    replied
    Originally posted by HenryT View Post
    1point2: why so angry about this? I believe in kata, 100%. I'm happy to tell you why, if you're interested (though not, I agree, on this thread). But if you don't agree, OK - I don't have a problem with that. Trollish, to acknowledge that different people have different opinions? You having a bad day or something?
    Foxguitar has shat up several threads with his monotonous, non-engagement style of non-argument regarding kata.

    This site is about verifiable claims and useful, practical martial arts training. We totally accept kata practitioners and kata proponents, as long as they acknowledge its shortcomings and present evidence for their views regarding its usefulness. Fox has refused to do any of these things; at this point he is just perverting the purpose of the "TMA" forums.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1point2
    replied
    Originally posted by HenryT View Post
    BTW: the 'sparring or no sparring' question isn't really a question, because it misunderstands the seamlessness of the relation between kihon, kata and kumite. The advanced study of bunkai is free sparring, but it takes time and patience to get there. IMHO you shouldn't be in too much a hurry to do jiyu kumite. Study kata, kata, kata - not just how to do them, but what they mean - to the limits of your imagination. A lot of people who contribute to this site will disagree with me, though.
    No.

    Basic bunkai needs to be sparring. If your sparring doesn't include the techniques you train for in kata and bunkai, you are wasting your time. Jiyu kumite should be held off for a while...but on the order of weeks or days, not years or months. Kata, kata, kata is a good way to improve virtually nothing except your ability to perform the kata and have a vivid imagination. Alive drilling and sparring with a progressively resistant partner is the way to improve fighting attributes (strength, speed, footwork, timing, sensitivity, body coordination) and fighting skill. Forms can be a useful supplement for posture, balance, and the occasional avenue to examine technique, but if they take a more primary role than that, they have overstepped their usefulness.

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  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
    Fox, I recommend that you either present evidence for your arguments vis-a-vis the usefulness of kata, or STFU. It's become trollish the way you inject yourself into every damn thread with your "hey it's all opinion man but kata rocks" bullshit.

    Make your own thread where you present your arguments and thoughts, and hash it out there. Stop interfering with this site's mission of pointing people towards worthwhile schools.
    And i recommend you stop trolling your own point of view as it was holy gospel. I state what I believe is my belief , You try to shove your crap on everybody as if it was written by the gods.

    Well tuff shit . Im not alone in my views . better Karateka then me believe it and I believe it , You dont , fine who really cares a crap.

    Dont practice in a art that does Kata , go fight till your ears bleed I could care less . Go do what ever you want to . But dont tell me what I think or what I feel works for me is bullshit. We fought wars so we could have freedom of thought.

    So you need to worry about your own shit and dont worry about me or what works for me.

    And who are you to decide what is useful or useless for another person. Dont you think other people can decide for themselves.

    Not everybody wants to be Brock Lesnar

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  • HenryT
    replied
    kata

    1point2: why so angry about this? I believe in kata, 100%. I'm happy to tell you why, if you're interested (though not, I agree, on this thread). But if you don't agree, OK - I don't have a problem with that. Trollish, to acknowledge that different people have different opinions? You having a bad day or something?

    Leave a comment:


  • HenryT
    replied
    kata

    Couldn't agree more. But someone (Miyagi?) remarked that kata without bunkai is Okinawan folk-dance. When Harada san announces that kata is really a relaxation exercise (which is what I understand his position to be), I don't really know what he means. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here.

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  • 1point2
    replied
    Fox, I recommend that you either present evidence for your arguments vis-a-vis the usefulness of kata, or STFU. It's become trollish the way you inject yourself into every damn thread with your "hey it's all opinion man but kata rocks" bullshit.

    Make your own thread where you present your arguments and thoughts, and hash it out there. Stop interfering with this site's mission of pointing people towards worthwhile schools.

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by HenryT View Post
    Go on?
    everyone knows how I feel about Kata , which is if you dont know , Kata is a very valuable training tool. There are alot who discount it .
    I said this before its up to the individual to decide but my premise is if you dont like Kata dont pick a school or a style that puts alot of empathis on Kata .

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  • HenryT
    replied
    Kata

    Go on?

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  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by maofas View Post
    And for good reason.
    Oh not another of these threads LOL

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  • maofas
    replied
    And for good reason.

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  • HenryT
    replied
    Harada

    There is another thread on Harada Sensei that you can find if you search for it. I've had two cents' worth of say on it, and won't repeat myself here; but I'm not a big fan of KDS - because all the talk about how Harada has discovered the true secret of relaxation and body control, etc., is hooey. And kata as relaxation exercises? What???

    BTW: the 'sparring or no sparring' question isn't really a question, because it misunderstands the seamlessness of the relation between kihon, kata and kumite. The advanced study of bunkai is free sparring, but it takes time and patience to get there. IMHO you shouldn't be in too much a hurry to do jiyu kumite. Study kata, kata, kata - not just how to do them, but what they mean - to the limits of your imagination. A lot of people who contribute to this site will disagree with me, though.

    Leave a comment:

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