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    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post

    I agree, throwing noobs in to spar with each other, or to go wild, is often unproductive. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying teach the noobs technique with real timing, real distancing, real footwork, and a smidgen of resistance, and the results will be five times that of one-steps.
    Shouldn't one step start with real distance and timing? Otherwise your not blocking a punch/kick but a held out arm?

    Your not really punching unless your going to hit someone. The defender should have enough distance and awareness to not get hurt, after all they know your going to throw a real punch to hit them in the face. but its not sparring so only the one puch is coming. If the attackers distance is correct all they need to do is move their head back 5 or 6 inches to not get hurt. That way though the trainng is not alive, at least your learning to move and defend properly, based on when your opponent attacks, not on a count of japanese numbers?

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      Originally posted by mrgoshthereturn View Post
      Shouldn't one step start with real distance and timing? Otherwise your not blocking a punch/kick but a held out arm?

      Your not really punching unless your going to hit someone. The defender should have enough distance and awareness to not get hurt, after all they know your going to throw a real punch to hit them in the face. but its not sparring so only the one puch is coming. If the attackers distance is correct all they need to do is move their head back 5 or 6 inches to not get hurt. That way though the trainng is not alive, at least your learning to move and defend properly, based on when your opponent attacks, not on a count of japanese numbers?
      Good question. No, one-steps do not involve real distance and timing. We're talking about two people standing in front of each other, then in a "ready, set, go" way (with or without a count), one of them steps back, then forward rapidly. That's what I mean by contrived.

      There's no working or playing with distance--they take a moment before the drill to set the distance, and then they follow proscribed steps. At no point do they learn about distancing in any meaningful or physical way. It's all theoretical: this is our distance. Now we go. That's not productive regarding distancing. Instead, you need the partners to be moving around freely, advancing and retreating and circling, then throwing the technique.

      As for timing, you are mistaking it for speed. Having someone punch quickly does not help me with timing--it just tests my reaction time. To learn timing, again, we have to be moving and jostling for position, then one person fires a technique unpredictably. One-steps don't do that.

      Now, if your one-steps are basically "point sparring where one person is the attacker," then none of this applies. But the ippon kumite/one-steps/yakusoku however you spell it kumite has always been the "stand facing each other, attacker steps back, attacker steps forward and attacks" contrived pattern.

      Comment


        PS. One-steps, called "shobu" in my old Isshinryu school/organization, contained a few nice techniques. But containing those techniques didn't mean anything to either A) the normal students, who were busy just remembering the technique and getting their reaction speed up to par with whatever their partner threw, or B) dedicated students, who even though they worked hard at what they were given, were fundamentally spending their time practicing compliant strikes and takedowns based on theoretical reactions and unrealistic attacks. Why? Why not do it right?

        Those techniques I like in the shobu can be taught effectively, quickly, and safely with alive training methods like pads, progressively resistance partners, and sparring drills that involve movement, timing, footwork, and playing with counters and setups.

        Comment


          Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
          This statement still stands, regardless of John Slocum. One-steps might be something to do other than sparring, but they don't teach timing or distancing. They really aren't useful for much except introducing a technique, and they do that poorly.

          I agree, throwing noobs in to spar with each other, or to go wild, is often unproductive. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying teach the noobs technique with real timing, real distancing, real footwork, and a smidgen of resistance, and the results will be five times that of one-steps.

          Ok point well taken,

          But I do think at least in the very beginning it gets the students to begin to face a live opponent. Im not saying i love one steps I do think they serve a purpose , Its like riding a bicycle most people learn on training wheels sure you can do what I did and just get on the bike and fall 100 times skin the shit of out your knees but eventually if you dont give up you will be riding a bike.
          But not every body is so bold.

          Just my humble opinion.

          and I do agree with you you have to free spar ASAP and one steps are not a substitute.
          And Maybe they could be done away with .Its been along times since Ive done any of em . But Im not a beginner and as a beginner I started with them .
          Last edited by foxguitar; 8/10/2009 3:03pm, .

          Comment


            Doing one-steps as preparation for sparring is like getting on a stationary exercise bike to learn to ride a bicycle. They require none of the live skills--footwork, balance, timing, coordination--that sparring (bicycling) does, but it resembles something like the real thing.

            In other words, it's a useless construct that is done not because it's effective, but out of blind tradition.

            Training wheels, in regards to sparring, would be the "pads, progressively resistance partners, and sparring drills that involve movement, timing, footwork, and playing with counters and setups" that I mentioned. Not one-steps/shobu/ippon kumite.

            Comment


              Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
              Doing one-steps as preparation for sparring is like getting on a stationary exercise bike to learn to ride a bicycle. They require none of the live skills--footwork, balance, timing, coordination--that sparring (bicycling) does, but it resembles something like the real thing.

              In other words, it's a useless construct that is done not because it's effective, but out of blind tradition.

              Training wheels, in regards to sparring, would be the "pads, progressively resistance partners, and sparring drills that involve movement, timing, footwork, and playing with counters and setups" that I mentioned. Not one-steps/shobu/ippon kumite.

              Ok I can see that .

              OSU

              Comment


                Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
                Good question. No, one-steps do not involve real distance and timing. We're talking about two people standing in front of each other, then in a "ready, set, go" way (with or without a count), one of them steps back, then forward rapidly. That's what I mean by contrived.

                There's no working or playing with distance--they take a moment before the drill to set the distance, and then they follow proscribed steps. At no point do they learn about distancing in any meaningful or physical way. It's all theoretical: this is our distance. Now we go. That's not productive regarding distancing. Instead, you need the partners to be moving around freely, advancing and retreating and circling, then throwing the technique.

                As for timing, you are mistaking it for speed. Having someone punch quickly does not help me with timing--it just tests my reaction time. To learn timing, again, we have to be moving and jostling for position, then one person fires a technique unpredictably. One-steps don't do that.

                Now, if your one-steps are basically "point sparring where one person is the attacker," then none of this applies. But the ippon kumite/one-steps/yakusoku however you spell it kumite has always been the "stand facing each other, attacker steps back, attacker steps forward and attacks" contrived pattern.

                Gotcha, always good to learn the weakness in a training method.

                Comment


                  A little OT but not really

                  last night in my Dojo we did some grappling and let me tell you it gave me renewed respect for grapplers whether it be wrestling BJJ JJJ or Judo., it was really tough.

                  As you know Shotokan is IMHO a great striking stand up art , we do sweeps we do takedowns but we have no ground game whatsoever .

                  But my sensei wants to start incorporating some grappling into the program which I think is a great thing.
                  I know noway is it anyway near as intense as a BJJ dojo program but at least we are getting some practical experience grappling which for alot of Karate schools is rare.

                  Like I said I really have renewed respect for grapplers , I was gassed and drained after that class. I really thought it was a great learning experience.
                  Dont get me wrong we are not going to be like tiger schulman or jack of all trades Dojo master of none but the point being it was really cool

                  Comment


                    this whole thing about "what would happen in a street fight"

                    well anyone who does a traditional martial art would never get into a fight unless someone else attacked em

                    the mma nuts prob go looking for a fight and boxers don't have enough brains to stop fighting

                    the truth is street fights are normally one person versus two or more scumbags with little or no experience they wont be able to play the ground game most they could do is rugby tackle you if you dont plant your foot in their face while they try

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Patcherson View Post
                      this whole thing about "what would happen in a street fight"

                      well anyone who does a traditional martial art would never get into a fight unless someone else attacked em

                      the mma nuts prob go looking for a fight and boxers don't have enough brains to stop fighting

                      the truth is street fights are normally one person versus two or more scumbags with little or no experience they wont be able to play the ground game most they could do is rugby tackle you if you dont plant your foot in their face while they try
                      Oh, that's good to hear. I suppose you have statistics to back you up? Because the FBI stats on violent crime don't really jive with what you're saying. Nor do my experiences with MMA nuts, boxers, and karate guys. Their propensity, regardless of training, is to pick fights based on their original personality/upbringing/social class, not the style of martial art they do.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Patcherson View Post
                        this whole thing about "what would happen in a street fight"

                        well anyone who does a traditional martial art would never get into a fight unless someone else attacked em

                        the mma nuts prob go looking for a fight and boxers don't have enough brains to stop fighting

                        the truth is street fights are normally one person versus two or more scumbags with little or no experience they wont be able to play the ground game most they could do is rugby tackle you if you dont plant your foot in their face while they try
                        Stop trolling the thread. Insulting two other styles was not necessary. This isn't YMAS.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by It is Fake View Post
                          Stop trolling the thread. Insulting two other styles was not necessary. This isn't YMAS.
                          look at 1point2's posts on same thread as this

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Patcherson View Post
                            look at 1point2's posts on same thread as this
                            I've made quite a few. Which are at issue?

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Patcherson View Post
                              this whole thing about "what would happen in a street fight"

                              well anyone who does a traditional martial art would never get into a fight unless someone else attacked em

                              the mma nuts prob go looking for a fight and boxers don't have enough brains to stop fighting

                              the truth is street fights are normally one person versus two or more scumbags with little or no experience they wont be able to play the ground game most they could do is rugby tackle you if you dont plant your foot in their face while they try
                              How old are you?

                              Comment


                                Fox, I'm working on a "Karate Kata & Progressive Martial Art Training" FAQ to set up discussion so we can hopefully make sure everyone is on the same page, ending threads full of talking past each other.

                                Patcherson, you have a lot of growing up to do before you ever take part in these discussions.

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