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  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by bitchslapper View Post
    Translation. I've lost, again, and I know it. To salvage my ego, again, I will now pretend that I'm not trying to convince anyone and don't care what anyone else thinks.


    Red herring


    If that's really why you train then you should be very interested in verifying wether your training methods work or not.

    And what is your valuable contribution to this , Even though I disagree with some of what 1point says he at leasts states his premise , whats your claim to fame , No I didnt lose , there are others who agree with me as there are others who disagree , So wheres your School , what rank are you , are you a expert or a teacher . whats your training back ground.

    Before I take what you have to say serious I want background otherwise sorry no disrespect , But what you say means nada . :viking:

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
    Thanks maofas, that's a valid point re: endurance. I also totally agree about letting kata be a venue for hip use, posture, and balance.

    It's that so many of the people that do kata--I genuinely believe 90% or greater--believe it does ridiculous things, or that it's great as a primary training method for fighting.

    Thats where you are in error , not once did I ,Ill sonly speak for myself , ever say Kata alone will make you a superior fighter . No if you dont fight and you dont do all the good things YOU AND I AGREE on , cardio , pad , live training , strength training , then just doing Kata is silly . But my sole point is and I think Mao stated it really nicely , it helps , it doesnt hurt , it gives you certain things that help your fighting.

    And if you are taking traditional Martial Art such as Karate Do you will have to do them , Sure I used to do them just to go belt to belt but now being older and somewhat wiser I realize there are useful applications and value to attempt to master them . You will never master Kata , maybe be somewhat proficient but never really master .

    And for one last point You say pussies do Kata , I disagree it takes balls of steel to perform at a high level Kata in front of spectators intense concentration and focus. Everything is carefully practiced over and over till it becomes second nature.

    In kumite one could win on a lucky kick or punch not so with kata .
    Point being , sure you could be a dipshit and prance thru your Katas like you are in a hurry or you do them with power and focus and thats where I strongly believe it transcends into fighting . Look this is my opinion and nobody has to agree . And maybe if I was in my 20s and started at a BJJ or a MMA gym Id feel Kata was a waste too but Ill stick to Karate its worked for me , I enjoy it , I love doing my tournaments every few months matter of fact Mao and I know alot of the same people.

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  • Lindz
    replied
    Originally posted by foxguitar View Post
    no need to , im not here to appease you or to try and change your mind . Go do what you think you need to for you , Ill do what works for me.
    Translation. I've lost, again, and I know it. To salvage my ego, again, I will now pretend that I'm not trying to convince anyone and don't care what anyone else thinks.

    Originally posted by foxguitar View Post
    and to tell you the truth most good street fighters dont need much training they generally shoot or stab or perhaps club ,they dont have the patience or disclipline to train in gyms or Dojos.
    Red herring

    Originally posted by foxguitar View Post
    So really this conversation is limited to us dedicated people who train first to protect ourselves and secondary for reasons like physical fitness , health , sport etc.
    If that's really why you train then you should be very interested in verifying wether your training methods work or not.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1point2
    replied
    Thanks maofas, that's a valid point re: endurance. I also totally agree about letting kata be a venue for hip use, posture, and balance.

    It's that so many of the people that do kata--I genuinely believe 90% or greater--believe it does ridiculous things, or that it's great as a primary training method for fighting.

    Leave a comment:


  • maofas
    replied
    Honestly, I agree with some of the good things you point out about kata, but there's this one roadblock in your logic imo where you just sort-of assume that because a person does good kata and fights well one causes the other. I think there's only the most indirect of ties between them.

    Kata has no direct effect on your fighting, but the indirect effects of improving balance, basic hip mechanics, posture, etc. (all of which you mentioned) are real. Indirect positive effects are still positive effects. I think of it as a warmup with side benifits. Spending lots of classtime doing it or constantly teaching new ones is a bad thing though.

    FWIW I taught for 5 years "full" time (20 hours a week) for my head instructor, later coached 1-3 people for 2 years informally 2x a week for 2 hours. In the dojo I occaisionally taught kata because people needed it for gradings, on my own time I didn't bother.

    There's no dramatic difference in the non-kata people's sparring vs. the kata people (and the non-kata people still fight like Karateka, the didn't magically morph into MT just because I took away kata which I think is a lot of people's irrational fear of ditching it).

    All I can really point to is a) I notice the people who didn't do kata tend to not sink their hips enough on punches, so I'm going to emphasize that more during pad & partner drills and correct it that way. b) The balance of the non-kata people was definitely slower to develop I think. It took them longer to feel comfortable being on one leg kicking. They all wanted to box basically for the first year or so...so I started forcing them to do you-can-only-punch-if-it-precedes-or-follows-a-kick sparring. No kata needed.

    So anyways imo, it's important for the kata-supports to remember they're just like any other excercise. It works certain attributes, but there are many ways to work any attribute. Most drills are good for more than one thing. When you look over your lessons, kata may fill a void or be totally unneccessary.

    I think it makes a fine group warmup + side benifits. I just don't want to waste class time teaching it. One day maybe.

    P.S. 1.2 kata CAN be effective for endurance. Shotokan katas are mostly low stances with jumps with big motions done at a brisk pace. It's not as good as intense pad drills, but I have pretty good cardio and (if I flipped ut and had a sudden urge to do kata again) I could get myself out of breath pretty easily running through katas, one after the next.

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by maofas View Post
    HenryT,

    Some of what you say I agree with, but my main beef with your POV is saying sparring should be held off. (Now you're saying till sandan? Holy shit I almost fell out of my chair reading that.) I agree karate is not a quick fix, but that's not an excuse to complacently suck until 3rd dan (and suck for god knows how long after that while you play catch-up).

    The longer you hold off sparring the longer it takes to be comfortable with it. The more of a big production you turn it into ("Ooo my first sparring sessions, finally after all these years!"), the more nervousness people will build up and have to overcome.

    Words can't really express the how bad an idea I think not sparring until sandan is. It makes me ill to think people exist who actually do that. I'm not saying toss them in on their first day, but as soon as you can do a jab, reverse punch, and a front kick fairly decently, you should get in there.

    The learning process and sharpening of technique isn't something you do first and then spar, they go hand in hand and the two processes help each other. You learn a technique, you try it in free-play, you see (or your instructor points out) problems in your application, you go back and drill more, rinse, repeat until you have an awesome technique.

    My second beef : Fuck bunkai, it's a pointless way to learn to fight. If you want to practice techniques, just practice techniques and make up appropriate drils for them. That being said, I think it can be an interesting intellectual excercise and has historical value, but as far as practical learning how to bash people goes, fuck bunkai. Done badly it's worse than worthless and done correctly, at best, it's the most inefficient, roundabout method possible.

    I agree wwith most of your post , I think one should begin to spar as soon as one can execute a few techniques , Maybe start off One step sparring to become acclimated to sparring . gain insight into things like distance and timing , etc

    To wait to Sandan wow , In some dojos that could be way over 10 years and realistically how many students last till shodan much less sandan.

    My argument isnt about the live training or the engaging in kumite or even the cardio , bag work , gym , etc , My beef is to just dismiss Kata training just out of hand as it is totally useless to me is silly.

    I think Kata training along with all the other areas will help a person become a better fighter in karate , I cant answer for non karate arts.

    But since I do karate thats the area ill speak of.

    Leave a comment:


  • maofas
    replied
    HenryT,

    Some of what you say I agree with, but my main beef with your POV is saying sparring should be held off. (Now you're saying till sandan? Holy shit I almost fell out of my chair reading that.) I agree karate is not a quick fix, but that's not an excuse to complacently suck until 3rd dan (and suck for god knows how long after that while you play catch-up).

    The longer you hold off sparring the longer it takes to be comfortable with it. The more of a big production you turn it into ("Ooo my first sparring sessions, finally after all these years!"), the more nervousness people will build up and have to overcome.

    Words can't really express the how bad an idea I think not sparring until sandan is. It makes me ill to think people exist who actually do that. I'm not saying toss them in on their first day, but as soon as you can do a jab, reverse punch, and a front kick fairly decently, you should get in there.

    The learning process and sharpening of technique isn't something you do first and then spar, they go hand in hand and the two processes help each other. You learn a technique, you try it in free-play, you see (or your instructor points out) problems in your application, you go back and drill more, rinse, repeat until you have an awesome technique.

    My second beef : Fuck bunkai, it's a pointless way to learn to fight. If you want to practice techniques, just practice techniques and make up appropriate drils for them. That being said, I think it can be an interesting intellectual excercise and has historical value, but as far as practical learning how to bash people goes, fuck bunkai. Done badly it's worse than worthless and done correctly, at best, it's the most inefficient, roundabout method possible.

    Leave a comment:


  • HenryT
    replied
    Why this website exists

    Do you two know why this website exists?
    I think so, Master.
    :bowdown:
    To expose fakery and pretension? To give honest and reasoned opinions? To exchange views on the things we all care about and discuss them in a civilized fashion?

    No? You tell me, then.

    I've given you an honest and reasoned opinion, and I've tried to exchange views with you and discuss them in a civilized fashion. I'm more than happy to do that; but if all you want to do is hector and bully and badmouth, then screw you and your horsey too, as my old grandma used to say.

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
    Do you two know why this website exists?
    I thought to discuss Martial arts and to have divurgent opinions , not to skip to my loo and bad mouth everybody or anything the elitist within this website dissapprove of or disagree with.

    Yeah Ive been here awhile , so let me ask you why have a forum if opposing views are routinely dismissed .

    Because you or your fellow elitists believe something so therefore its true.

    You still didnt answer the question why you hate Isshinryu so much was it the school or the style.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1point2
    replied
    Do you two know why this website exists?

    Leave a comment:


  • HenryT
    replied
    kata

    Go do what you think you need to for you
    Yes, I second this. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe: no problem - the world is wide.

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
    Try again.
    no need to , im not here to appease you or to try and change your mind . Go do what you think you need to for you , Ill do what works for me. and to tell you the truth most good street fighters dont need much training they generally shoot or stab or perhaps club ,they dont have the patience or disclipline to train in gyms or Dojos.

    So really this conversation is limited to us dedicated people who train first to protect ourselves and secondary for reasons like physical fitness , health , sport etc.

    And Point I take it you no longer do Isshinryu , correct , did you hate that style that much , why did you stay till 2nd dan Just curious. or was it the particular school

    Leave a comment:


  • 1point2
    replied
    Originally posted by foxguitar
    How could it possibly improve endurance? I'll allow for balance, posture, focus (guh, what an overused term) and maybe some remedial coordination...but how are the heavy bag, shadowboxing, and pad work not eminently superior for everything except balance and posture? Don't just assert, argue and explain. With examples.

    Ive already stated too that yes bag work , pad work , weight training , cardio are all important . yes a live opponent is definitely needed , we agree on all that . The only difference I see , is you are of the opinion that Kata serves no useful purpose in helping you to be a better fighter . Thats the disagreement. I think if you do Kata only to go from orange belt to green belt and never really put the time in to attempt to master the Kata then yes its useless But I think once you get to Dan grading you should really put alot of time and effort into giving the Kata the effort it deserves.

    And in my observation Ive seen in competitions the persons who do Kata extremely well usually place well in Kumite But the persons who strictly do Kumite dont always do well in Kata .
    Try again.

    Leave a comment:


  • HenryT
    replied
    create for yourself a large repertoire of conditioned reflexes that are utterly internalised:with an increasingly non-compliant partner.

    (c) most of all, look beyond the obvious applications; use imagination and creativity to find everything that is implicit in the kata; do this with a non-compliant partner and against spontaneous and non telegraphed attacks.

    This last is

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    [quote=1point2;2181999]How could it possibly improve endurance? I'll allow for balance, posture, focus (guh, what an overused term) and maybe some remedial coordination...but how are the heavy bag, shadowboxing, and pad work not eminently superior for everything except balance and posture? Don't just assert, argue and explain. With examples.

    Ive already stated too that yes bag work , pad work , weight training , cardio are all important . yes a live opponent is definitely needed , we agree on all that . The only difference I see , is you are of the opinion that Kata serves no useful purpose in helping you to be a better fighter . Thats the disagreement. I think if you do Kata only to go from orange belt to green belt and never really put the time in to attempt to master the Kata then yes its useless But I think once you get to Dan grading you should really put alot of time and effort into giving the Kata the effort it deserves.

    And in my observation Ive seen in competitions the persons who do Kata extremely well usually place well in Kumite But the persons who strictly do Kumite dont always do well in Kata .

    Leave a comment:

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