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Karate Do Shotokai

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  • 1point2
    replied
    Are you in the NYC area? We're having a friendly sparring session (throwdown) soon and I'd love for you to come.

    Your comments are both logically and factually flawed. I recommend finding out why, then posting your findings here.

    Leave a comment:


  • Patcherson
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
    How could it possibly improve endurance? I'll allow for balance, posture, focus (guh, what an overused term) and maybe some remedial coordination...but how are the heavy bag, shadowboxing, and pad work not eminently superior for everything except balance and posture? Don't just assert, argue and explain
    use your brain!

    kata can be like shadow boxing expt you are moving around thus using your leg muscles more as well as your arms yeat again u fail

    Leave a comment:


  • Patcherson
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
    Fox, I recommend that you either present evidence for your arguments vis-a-vis the usefulness of kata, or STFU. It's become trollish the way you inject yourself into every damn thread with your "hey it's all opinion man but kata rocks" bullshit.

    Make your own thread where you present your arguments and thoughts, and hash it out there. Stop interfering with this site's mission of pointing people towards worthwhile schools.
    what Jesus h crist!

    kata are the best training tools I'v ever come across!

    by learning one kata one training you in over 15 techniques you learn them all very quickly as well as if you repeat the kata and perfect it you perfect the techniques.

    kata are also very could for exercise and i could go on but could be bothered i'm just in after a hard session practicing kata xD

    Heian Nidan,Heian Yondan,Bassai Dai


    for anyone who wants to look it up
    and they ARE great tools!

    so 1point2 can just go to hell every single one of your posts are troll posts or dissing.

    your're pathetic

    stay strong everyone else

    Leave a comment:


  • HenryT
    replied
    kumite and Sandan

    This last is
    I didn't mean by this that you shouldn't spar at all until Sandan; what I meant in the context is that you aren't in a position fully to explore all the inner meanings and implications of kata (as distinct from the obvious, surface, meanings) until then. It's when you can do that that sparring becomes really free, rather than just bashing each other with a few techniques. Re-reading the post, I should have made myself clearer. Apologies.

    I agree that this might as well be put to bed. I'm a believer, others aren't. Fair enough.

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    I hear the points made by1point and Mao , I agree with alot of what you guys say. I have no problem being in a debate , that what makes this forum live not all of agreeing in lock step.

    So ok no problem , Maybe I give Kata too much praise but to me and my stubborn thinking I think it does help . But thats me Im old and stubborn and come learning from guys like Miyazaki ,Alex Sternberg , Tom Lapuppet (RIP) who were all great fighters and all preached the virtues of Kata . So maybe im jaded .

    My current Senseis are world class and former team members of their countries national team and are both brilliant fighters and Kata performers.
    So again maybe my thinking is slanded .
    Like I said maybe if I did BJJ or MMA or Muay Thai Id feel differently . But all the masters I grew up admiring like the ones I entioned and others I got to see at tournaments such as the late great William Oliver were great fighters and great Kata to me they kinda went hand in hand.

    And I do think if you do Karate you will have to do Kata to a degree . I dont know if any Karate style is Kata-less . That was my point before why take karate if you dont want to do Kata theory.

    I think we should put this debate to bed. We can respectfully agree to disagree

    OSU

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by maofas View Post
    Ha, the tail fins were a good analogy. I really really wish someone would make a modern car that got good mileage with tail-fins.
    yeah me too :laughing4

    Leave a comment:


  • maofas
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
    That's silly. Under your theory, karate is stuck in the mud, unable to move forward or change in any way.

    Karate without kata is like car without tail fins. No it's not the way it used to be.
    Ha, the tail fins were a good analogy. I really really wish someone would make a modern car that got good mileage with tail-fins.

    Leave a comment:


  • maofas
    replied
    I agree that Karate needs the 3 Ks (Kihon, Kata, and Kumite), but Kata is not JUST those formal mandancing patterns. Kata can also mean the 2-man variety which I feel is more valuable and relevant to MA in pretty much every way.

    I'll tell you what officially made me stop ever doing kata except one in a blue moon on a whim, when my Judo school moved into a slightly less ghetto locale all of my instructors, the gendai jjj that the instructors x-train sharing space with us, we had an in-house seminar (for lack of a better term), which our teacher's teachers there. Ernie Cates did a demo of a guard pass into scarf-hold. The technique demoed wasn't so much the big deal (though it helped my scarfhold for sure which definitely helped me in general), it was that he told people to do it slow and repetitiously and bitched about people using uchi-komis as a warmup instead of as KATA (meaning focus on perfecting the form, doing every single nuance perfectly).

    I already looked at line drills as improv kata, what then is the difference between a sparring drill and a 2 man kata? Japanese Sword 2-man katas look like fighting to me (and are still beautiful), why shouldn't striking katas be the same? What is the difference between pad drills & uchi komi/nage komi in judo? You should look at your form in sparring & pad drills with the same critical eye you judge kata with. The only difference is, the standards of good form have different criteria.

    P.S. Fox, I don't see one why not doing kata has anything to do with someone a "tough guy". It's like, I have to prove I'm part of the not-a-meathead MA sect by giving you the secret Masonic mandance of Bassai Dai (Japanese for "Truffle Shuffle").
    Last edited by maofas; 7/31/2009 9:20am, .

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by 1point2 View Post
    That's silly. Under your theory, karate is stuck in the mud, unable to move forward or change in any way.

    Karate without kata is like car without tail fins. No it's not the way it used to be.

    And why do teachers of these styles teach and preach kata? I would argue that in most cases it's 2 parts mindless ignorance, 3 parts blindly following tradition, with a healthy splash of them not caring if it teaches people how to fight.

    you and I are not are not that far apart from our beliefs , We both agree on live training , and supplementary training , the bag the pad the cardio , the strength training , The one thing that we disagree is on the usefullness of Kata training.

    I still dont understand why you are so against it , I never did Isshinryu so I cant comment on their Katas was it the style itself or your Dojo.

    Again Im not saying that Kata alone will turn you into Lyoto Machida but how many of us are going to be Lyoto Machida anyway.
    All Im saying there are usefull attributes that coupled with serious practice and talent will help your fight game.

    So really I think this thread or at least this part is worn thin.

    there are those who believe you are right and there are those who feel I am right.

    So lets agree to disagree and called a Auchi . ok :angel8:

    Leave a comment:


  • 1point2
    replied
    Originally posted by foxguitar View Post
    You are missing the point I think.

    ok lets slow down Im saying all major styles of karate teach and preach Kata dont they , Shotokan , Goju , Kenpo , Shito Ryu , Shorin Ryu what ever you name it they teach Kata.

    So if you dont want that thats fine , then perhaps then a art such as Muay Thai or BJJ is more what the person should go for.

    Its not Karate with out the Kata , Its half karate , If I go to learn a style say Shotokan , I want to learn the style including the basics the kihon , the Kata and Kumite , If all I want to do is learn to fight then why do karate , I can join a boxing gym etc.

    Its like a buying a car without wheels.

    Ok other point , its all connected by getting up the courage to perform a Kata you learn to overcome your fear , And anything that helps you in anyway is a positive.

    Not everybody is a tough guy , and like you said your werent nervous getting up to fight but scared shitless to do Kata.
    That's silly. Under your theory, karate is stuck in the mud, unable to move forward or change in any way.

    Karate without kata is like car without tail fins. No it's not the way it used to be.

    And why do teachers of these styles teach and preach kata? I would argue that in most cases it's 2 parts mindless ignorance, 3 parts blindly following tradition, with a healthy splash of them not caring if it teaches people how to fight.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lindz
    replied
    Originally posted by foxguitar View Post
    well from here on in unless you provide intelligent rebuttal , I will ignore ,
    There's nothing to rebutt. You've made assertions with no proof.

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by bitchslapper View Post
    My contribution is that you make no contribution. You state your beliefs. Refuse to provide proof. And when that doesn't work you claim you don't care. Facts or fuck off. My rank and training doesn't really matter for this specific discussion. Asking about my ranks is just a setup for appeal to authority.
    well from here on in unless you provide intelligent rebuttal , I will ignore , no asking you your rank is just wanting to know what experience you have are you a greenbelt or a someone that has put in alot of time .

    It is not an appeal to authority buckoo , its called wanting to know if the person one is engaging in this discussion is on the same level or maybe higher .

    Not for a Im a BB and your not childish bullshit , cause that would be steeping to your level.

    So far all you have done is criticize without offering any creditable rebuttal.

    Look others disagree with my position 1point and Maofas, they recite their reasons , fine we agree on certain things disagree on others but you on the other give nothing to the table.

    And untill you say what your training and experience level , I wont acknowledge you. Because If you have a background or are an instructor Then at least you put in the required time and therefore can speak from your personal experience .

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by maofas View Post
    Well, I won't lie, it's scary to do kata in front of a shitload (or even a small group) of judges/spectators critiquing every little nuance. I was never as nervous fighting, even when I got an assbeating, because you had a person in front of you to focus on and deal with and if people were watching they were watching "a fight" not "you".

    I don't think this has anything at all to do with making one a better fighter. I guess if the question were, "Did this help you in any was as a person?" I'd have to answer yes (reluctantly!). I'm not a naturally outgoing person, but I don't have any trouble speaking in front of large groups. I attribute that to performing kata. (Afterall, what's giving a speech when lots of people have watched you dance around in your pajamas yelling like Toshiro Mifune?)

    The only thing is, as you said, you have to devote a lot of practice to it until it becomes second nature. That's an awful lot of time spent on kata.

    P.S. One thing though, when people say kata is worthless, you leap all the way to "Don't do Karate". Does this mean you believe Karate must have kata to be Karate? I used to not be sure about this, but I'm positive kata-less Karate is still Karate now.

    You are missing the point I think.

    ok lets slow down Im saying all major styles of karate teach and preach Kata dont they , Shotokan , Goju , Kenpo , Shito Ryu , Shorin Ryu what ever you name it they teach Kata.

    So if you dont want that thats fine , then perhaps then a art such as Muay Thai or BJJ is more what the person should go for.

    Its not Karate with out the Kata , Its half karate , If I go to learn a style say Shotokan , I want to learn the style including the basics the kihon , the Kata and Kumite , If all I want to do is learn to fight then why do karate , I can join a boxing gym etc.

    Its like a buying a car without wheels.

    Ok other point , its all connected by getting up the courage to perform a Kata you learn to overcome your fear , And anything that helps you in anyway is a positive.

    Not everybody is a tough guy , and like you said your werent nervous getting up to fight but scared shitless to do Kata.

    Second Im not rehashing the reasons why I think dilligent Kata practice helps your fight game , thats up to each person.

    But look its how I feel and Im not changing my opinion and whoever dont agree cool . good for you.

    Leave a comment:


  • maofas
    replied
    And for one last point You say pussies do Kata , I disagree it takes balls of steel to perform at a high level Kata in front of spectators intense concentration and focus. Everything is carefully practiced over and over till it becomes second nature.
    Well, I won't lie, it's scary to do kata in front of a shitload (or even a small group) of judges/spectators critiquing every little nuance. I was never as nervous fighting, even when I got an assbeating, because you had a person in front of you to focus on and deal with and if people were watching they were watching "a fight" not "you".

    I don't think this has anything at all to do with making one a better fighter. I guess if the question were, "Did this help you in any was as a person?" I'd have to answer yes (reluctantly!). I'm not a naturally outgoing person, but I don't have any trouble speaking in front of large groups. I attribute that to performing kata. (Afterall, what's giving a speech when lots of people have watched you dance around in your pajamas yelling like Toshiro Mifune?)

    The only thing is, as you said, you have to devote a lot of practice to it until it becomes second nature. That's an awful lot of time spent on kata.

    P.S. One thing though, when people say kata is worthless, you leap all the way to "Don't do Karate". Does this mean you believe Karate must have kata to be Karate? I used to not be sure about this, but I'm positive kata-less Karate is still Karate now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lindz
    replied
    My contribution is that you make no contribution. You state your beliefs. Refuse to provide proof. And when that doesn't work you claim you don't care. Facts or fuck off. My rank and training doesn't really matter for this specific discussion. Asking about my ranks is just a setup for appeal to authority.

    Leave a comment:

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