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Karate Do Shotokai

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  • Evil Solvalou
    replied
    Originally posted by foxguitar View Post
    But I dont know if he didnt do all that would we even be discussing martial arts. or would it still be a secretive thing ttaught in secret from father to son in private.
    Yes, because it was Funakoshi who popularised the Japanese martial arts. Without Funakoshi no one outside of Japan would be learning JMA.

    Oh wait...

    Spoiler:

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    Fox, you want to tell me I don't know something?

    Prove it.

    I can prove that kata-dancing as advocated by Shotokan karate and all other "elementary school" derived karate systems are inferior to both modern "alive" training, and historical tode-tegumi training in as far as developing overall fighting ability & skill development.

    That is the only purpose of discussion in the TMA forums on Bullshido. If that's not what you want to discuss, then go elsewhere.

    If you want to discuss that, then you MUST PROVE that kata-dancing is AS EFFECTIVE as either alive training, or tode-tegumi.

    That is the only parameter that matters on this forum.

    So tell us, Fox.

    What was the original purpose of kata, and what was its place in tode training methodology?

    And Ive said a zillion times Kata coupled with live training and other supplementary training ie cardio , weight training helps make you a better fighter.

    Sure I can go take boxing probably never do a kata but it isnt Karate now is it , and truth is I could tale a louisville slugger with no training I d be the baddest motherfucker except if I come across some one with a gun .

    But if you are going to do Karate , or most KMA or CMA then Kata is part of the game.

    Could some dojos over rely on it yes. But a good dojo will have a good mix of The kata and the alive training. nobody disagrees you need the pads the bags the live resisting opponent , that we can agree on. But to say Kata is useless as a training aide to help you become more adept at shifting positions and strong foundations I disagree with that.

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    I don't have to know all there is to know.

    But I certainly know more than you.

    You don't see Master after my name because I don't have any need to self-aggrandize.

    Fox,

    What is the original purpose of kata/hyung/pumse, and what was its original training methodology and place in training?

    You dont self aggrandize , thats a laugh ,

    Why dont you tell me oh great one :bowdown:

    Leave a comment:


  • DerAuslander
    replied
    Fox, you want to tell me I don't know something?

    Prove it.

    I can prove that kata-dancing as advocated by Shotokan karate and all other "elementary school" derived karate systems are inferior to both modern "alive" training, and historical tode-tegumi training in as far as developing overall fighting ability & skill development.

    That is the only purpose of discussion in the TMA forums on Bullshido. If that's not what you want to discuss, then go elsewhere.

    If you want to discuss that, then you MUST PROVE that kata-dancing is AS EFFECTIVE as either alive training, or tode-tegumi.

    That is the only parameter that matters on this forum.

    So tell us, Fox.

    What was the original purpose of kata, and what was its place in tode training methodology?

    Leave a comment:


  • maofas
    replied
    Every thread in this forum eventually turns into a kata debate. Fuck kata, I don't care either way, let's discuss the other 2 Ks of Krotty for once.

    The OP's teacher invited him to witness full contact brown/black sparring, and I'm curious to see how that turned out.

    Leave a comment:


  • DerAuslander
    replied
    I don't have to know all there is to know.

    But I certainly know more than you.

    You don't see Master after my name because I don't have any need to self-aggrandize.

    Fox,

    What is the original purpose of kata/hyung/pumse, and what was its original training methodology and place in training?

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    Fox, shut the fuck up. No one here has said kata suck. Your idea of the purpose of kata sucks.

    Neither of you have a clue what you're talking about. You have only ever studied school children level karate, passed on by a teacher who didn't have a clue as to what his art actually contained.

    I think your problem is you are too impressed with yourself . And to you yours is the only opinion that counts and you have a trained bunch of hyenas that follow at your heels that nod their heads in approval everytime you decree something .

    You dont know all there is to know .

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    Fox, shut the fuck up. No one here has said kata suck. Your idea of the purpose of kata sucks.

    Neither of you have a clue what you're talking about. You have only ever studied school children level karate, passed on by a teacher who didn't have a clue as to what his art actually contained.
    yeah tell it to this guy who wrote poomse (kata) same shit teach a fighter to respond quickly to constantly changing motions. skills developed in Poomse (Kata) provide a strong foundation for sparring competition.

    Master Yong Sup Kil in the book Competitive TaeKwondo 2006

    Even though is WTF Taekwondo competition it dont matter if its WKF or AAU Karate its still the same. And I dont see master after your name .

    Leave a comment:


  • DerAuslander
    replied
    Fox, shut the fuck up. No one here has said kata suck. Your idea of the purpose of kata sucks.

    Neither of you have a clue what you're talking about. You have only ever studied school children level karate, passed on by a teacher who didn't have a clue as to what his art actually contained.

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by Patcherson View Post
    on some level you are right

    as the kata change they do loose some of their meaning
    e.g. in heian nidan YouTube - Heian Nidan - Shotokan Karate the opening move is a side block or arm catch (depends on interpretation )
    ,traditionally this was a cat stance rather than a back stance which would represent a knee into tho thigh or a sweep.

    this is a small example of how the kata do change but loose the meaning
    to simply say they are butchered is wrong they are modified. to say they are butchered is like saying a fork is a butchered spoon they are both for eating but are different and like the different styles of karate the kata are still for perfection but are different

    and 1point2 i would actually love to come and learn from you but i live in ireland sadly =/

    You and I are in the minority my friend , most people or maybe not most but a awful lot of the peeps on this website think Kata is useless and rail against it being anything more than some dance or some shit.
    I have argued over and over with alot of these guys who think Kata doesnt help your kumite at all and you are better served doing all sorts of other things besides Kata.

    So be warned you will get alot of flack from Kata sucks clique

    PS Kanazawa Sensei is great

    Leave a comment:


  • Patcherson
    replied
    Originally posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    Shotokan practitioners are not allowed to comment on the purpose of kata, considering how much Funakoshi completely butchered the original Shorin-ryu practices.
    on some level you are right

    as the kata change they do loose some of their meaning
    e.g. in heian nidan YouTube - Heian Nidan - Shotokan Karate the opening move is a side block or arm catch (depends on interpretation )
    ,traditionally this was a cat stance rather than a back stance which would represent a knee into tho thigh or a sweep.

    this is a small example of how the kata do change but loose the meaning
    to simply say they are butchered is wrong they are modified. to say they are butchered is like saying a fork is a butchered spoon they are both for eating but are different and like the different styles of karate the kata are still for perfection but are different

    and 1point2 i would actually love to come and learn from you but i live in ireland sadly =/

    Leave a comment:


  • foxguitar
    replied
    Originally posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    Shotokan practitioners are not allowed to comment on the purpose of kata, considering how much Funakoshi completely butchered the original Shorin-ryu practices.

    I wouldnt say he butchered em he made it more palatable to the upright Japanese Population who looked down and thumbed their noses on the " lowly Okinawans"

    He Japanified Okinawan To-de to make it acceptable to the Japanese.
    Thus switching the okinawan names Pinan to Heian . Naihanchi to Tekki etc.
    switching the orders of Heian shodan and nidan . taking alot of the the brutal lethal techniques so school children could be taught .

    But I dont know if he didnt do all that would we even be discussing martial arts. or would it still be a secretive thing ttaught in secret from father to son in private.

    I dont think no matter what art you take it would be as popular today if funakoshi stayed true to his Okinawan roots.

    Leave a comment:


  • ironcastknight
    replied
    I practiced almost nothing but kata and some minor drilling and bunkai for an entire year in Shorin-ryu, and you know what I got out of it?

    I blocked a mawashi geri by punching someone in the fucking shin

    and then I got my ass kicked.


    I pitch my dime in with the "kata is worthless without kumite and isn't much more useful with it" crowd. I do admit, it also would have helped if the block we learned for low mawashi geri wasn't retarded and if I wasn't so much of an idiot that I used it in Kyokushin, but still, kata didn't help my ability to fight at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Evil Solvalou
    replied
    Originally posted by Patcherson View Post
    by learning one kata one training you in over 15 techniques you learn them all very quickly as well as if you repeat the kata and perfect it you perfect the techniques.
    I learned far more by doing pad work and two person drills at Boxing (haven't sparred yet) than I ever did practising kata in my Go-Ju days (daze). Perfecting a technique in the air without an opponent is one thing, actually hitting something, and more importantly, a moving and resisting opponent who doesn't want you to hit them is another thing entirely, and I don't see how kata can help teach that better than other, more effective methods.

    Leave a comment:


  • DerAuslander
    replied
    Shotokan practitioners are not allowed to comment on the purpose of kata, considering how much Funakoshi completely butchered the original Shorin-ryu practices.

    Leave a comment:

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